September 9, 2013

The Proper Place of Women in Preaching, Teaching, Discernment etc. (Chris Rosebrough)

(aside: for an update on the Ingrid/ChrisR situation please go here: http://www.purposedrivel.com/2013/09/a-great-announcement.html  Ingrid and Chris had reconciled.  This was a good thing.  We were all friends again.)

(2-25-2015 Further update here:
http://www.purposedrivel.com/2015/02/tullian-and-nadia-birds-of-feather.html
I am no longer a Pirate Christian supporter.  Too much hypocrisy, too many double standards, too many false accusations. I apologize for all the confusion.  I pray it won't happen again.)


I found Chris's 4 part series "
"How to Not Be Deceived, Bamboozled or Snookered by Religious Hucksters, Snake Oil Con Men or Your Own Idolatrous Notions" (youtube playlist)

I'm on part 2b (The order is 1, 2a, 2b, and 3 -- no idea why it's not just 1, 2, 3, 4 but... oh  well!)

At 26:55 in the youtube video powerpoint
34:24 in the podcast version

Chris has laid out the correct idea that clear passages are central on any topic, and it  helps us to understand and clarify the obscurer passages.  He brings up and gives examples on how this is disregarded and Scripture is twisted in order to justify women's ordination.

An audience member asks about the judge Deborah in the context of discussing women's ordination.    Chris's answer is excellent.  And far better than the complaining about "discernment divas" which we hear from certain men in Evangelicalism these days.
"I would go to the [story of the] judge Deborah. And when you read that story that story itself is brimming with tension regarding the fact that the men aren't doing what they're supposed to do. To the point where Deborah literally tells an Israeli commander to do his job and he won't do it unless she's there with him and she says 'fine, I'll go with you, but God's not going to give you the glory.' In Scripture it's always clear that when the men aren't doing their jobs, and it ends up with women rising up to the top like that, it's an indictment against the men and a judgement against them. That's a harsh way of thinking about it in 21st century American terms but that's a big part of the story of Deborah. So keep that in mind. But that wouldn't then… that passage, you can't put Judges and the story of Deborah in the center to obliterate all the other passages. And she's not operating in, she's not teaching in the synagogue."

another followup question that's too hard to hear comes up and Chris goes on:

"...we know for a fact she's not teaching in the church, but this is the other thing. Just because females do not have given by God the vocation of preaching and teaching in the church does not mean that females do not have the ability to preach and teach God's word. In fact we're all called to do it, it's just there's certain settings in which that's not appropriate. When the church gathers together for Word and Sacrament, that's not given to them to do that. There's an office to whom that is given and it's given to men. Now out in the world, women, preach the gospel to everybody you can find. Teach God's word to everybody who will listen! This is not to put a gag order on women and say 'oh you can't teach God's word ever, forget it it's not going to happen.' No, not at all! And I would even argue that women you are the ones who have the greatest say in the kids in who's coming up in the next generation. I can tell you this, that it was my wife who had the biggest impact on my kids because she's kind and nurturing and I'm grumpy and hairy. Ok, I'm just not that kind of nurturer."

"And so the reality is that these roles that God has created for us, these offices that we have, these offices of husband, father, mother, wife, these are not to be despised by us but embraced by us because this is how God has truly made us. And it's freedom, not slavery, to be acting in those offices where God has put us into. And this is not a gag order on women saying 'oh you can't ever teach God's word,' no no no. There's certain places in which that is not appropriate, God has called men to do a particular job and it's going back to the order of Creation. When you get home, I guarantee you, moms, you're having the greatest impact on your kids, because you're the ones teaching them the Scriptures often times. Although men you should be doing it at the dinner table but that's a different story. "

[Honestly guys like Phil Johnson and Brannon Howse, I would much rather not ever be disturbed enough to write blog posts like this so that I can just plant flowers, veggies, train my dogs, mow my yard, hunt turkeys and deer, clean my house, sew, or whatever else a good Christian gal is supposed to do) -- and I could have that, if Evangelicalism wasn't full of passive men afraid to confront false doctrine, particularly among their buddies.]

Thank you Chris.  I've kinda missed listening for the last year or two. :-)