A Remarkably Insightful and Accurate Description of the Deceptive Evil of Abusers - The following incredibly descriptive comment was submitted to the blog by TB in response to the article “The Patriarchal Father as Idol God.” We are makin...
September 12, 2013
Chris Pinto's words against Christine Pack, transcribed. Not much commentary except to explain when I skip portions because he is just reading Scripture and then explaining what he read. I can do that later. I may go through later and add bold to parts I think worthy of note. But I don't have time right now. I've taken too much time already to transcribe these. The words are plain in themselves.
Confronting the tale bearers 8-19-13 Noise of Thunder Radio
0:44 Today on the show we are going to talk about the issue of being a talebearer.
A tale bearer and a gossip. What does it mean to be a talebearer and a gossip?
Now obviously the show is not going to be a huge surprise to people who have been following things that have been going on with our ministry over the past few weeks and in the past few days in particular.
As some of you know I'm sure, many of you probably, there has been a brouhaha over a website called SolaSisters that has published all kinds of information, insidious comments and innuendos and things like that, where our ministry is concerned and made a number of statements, of course I posted a response under our articles page. (revised version 8-19, haven't compared, the document has since been pulled from WVW and NOTR's sites) And Brannon Howse sent out the response last night through the worldview weekend newsletter, and it's posted at worldviewweekend.com Because a lot of the attacks were not just aimed against me, But also against Brannon and worldview weekend as well.
2:04 And so it's just created a whole big mess that has gone on for several weeks from what I understand. It really even goes back several months from what I've been told about it.
But I really, when things like this happen, I try to avoid them. Because I prefer not to get involved with gossip and that's what really most of the stuff was. It was just gossip level information Or assertions, murmurings, Whisperings, I mean, it's all, it's why we're going to do the show on this Today because, as I go through the scripture And I read all of these scriptures about this, It just becomes clearer to me That that's what all of the stuff amounted to.
And through means of gossip and suggestion and Trying to link us and our ministry two things that are really not what our ministry is about But trying to make it seem that way. To make it seem as though we are promoting things That we're not necessarily promoting. Really things that we don't even know that much about. Things that we wouldn't know much of anything about, if all of this stuff had not been hurled at us.
3:30 So, and then to find out as a state in the article, and I'm not going to go over all of it here on the show today, but to find out that the chief accusation is based on information that comes from an anti-Christian website. And information that cannot be called in any way reliable or discerning or or anything like that, to discover all that, to me, has just been incredible.
And I've sat back in this whole thing and I've really marveled and I thought "Are there people in the Christian community that really take this stuff seriously? They really believe these things that they're being told and that they are reading?" And so on. And they think that this is a standard for determining right and wrong. To me it just doesn't make a lot of sense.
I think that where accusations are concerned, the Bible talks about "accuse not an elder except before two or three…" or "receive not an accusation against an elder except at the mouth of two or three witnesses." And that should be two or three witnesses who know something about the person in question and can either confirm or deny what's being said. But it shouldn't be based on suspicion - 'oh I suspect that I think this person might be disingenuous' or something --- that's not proof. It cannot be something that you could not present in a court of law.
I honestly think that where something is concerned, that you're going to make a case, you've got to be able to make a case by detailing your information and proving your points. If you're saying you think somebody's lying, deliberately lying, okay, then prove that, prove how they're lying. If you really think that's what you're supposed to do.
5:34 But to just say that 'we're suspicious of this' and then to wave off the fact that you've got many other ministers… because the person in question that we talk about in all of this, is someone who we interviewed for our secret mysteries series, and somebody who was received by a whole variety of other discernment ministries and still is, and has not been "discredited" in the way that it was assumed in a lot of these accusations.
6:13 But, there it is. I mean, we, we have it posted in the article that people can go read the details of it, it's all, it's certainly a big mess, but I think the real issue here When we turn to the scripture, When we hear scriptures like Judge not lest ye be judged, Or when James says Speak not evil Of one another, Brethren, he that speaketh evil of his brother and judges his brother speaks evil of the law and judges the law.
reads a lot of verses about gossip and slander and false witness
The Lord says in verse seven he that overcometh shall inherit all things, and I shall be his God and he shall be my son. But the fearful and unbelieving and the abominable and murderers and whore mongers and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone which is the second death. Of course I believe, and we believe, that applies to everyone. If there's somebody who's out telling deliberate lies whoever they may be, well they're certainly not going to escape the judgment to come. They're not going to escape the judgment of God. And so even if you think that someone is lying, okay, if you're not able to prove that, you couldn't prove it like in a court of law, then all you're going to do is end up becoming a slanderer, because in legal terminology if someone were to take you to court, not that I believe in Christians suing other Christians, but just think in those terms. There's a reason why those laws are there.
You cannot just go about slandering somebody because you are suspicious that there might be something wrong with them. That is simply slander, and of course everybody has a reason to bring about some slander. Or they always claim they do. I've never known anybody who says 'Oh yes I slandered that person and I had no reason to do it and I know that but I just thought I'd do it anyway.' Nobody says that. Everybody says they have a good reason. Everybody thinks they do, but do they really?
Alright now were talking about Psalm 101. How God says that he will cut off all wicked doers from the city of the Lord, And then in Revelation chapter 22, and verse 12 Jesus says "and behold I come quickly and my reward is with me, to give every man according As his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega the Beginning and the End, the first and the last. Blessed are they That do his commandments. That they may have right to the Tree of Life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and whore mongers, And murderers and idolaters and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie". Verse 16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto use these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David and the bright and morning star. And the spirit and the bride say come and let him that heareth say come, and let him that is athirst come, and whosoever will let him take the water of life freely. " Praise the Lord, praise God. All right brethren, that is it for us today."
The next day he went on talking about Christine Pack/SolaSisters
8-20-2013 Uproar at Ephesus (Noise of Thunder Radio)
0:44 "Okay praise the Lord You guys and welcome, I'm Chris Pinto This is noise of thunder radio. Today on the show we are doing a show called "Uproar at Ephesus...Uproar at Ephesus."
And it is based on the account of the apostle Paul in Acts chapter 19 When he was at Ephesus, And he was preaching against the idols in the city of ancient Ephesus. And he was saying "they are no gods were made with hands." And so on. And that was really the context of his preaching the gospel. He's telling the people to turn away from their pagan gods and put their faith and trust in the lord Jesus Christ. Now why are we talking about this on the show today? Well the reason is because, as you know, many of you are familiar with the conflict that we have been dealing with here at our ministry and over at Worldview Weekend. And all of the controversy and the comments back-and-forth, And this kind of thing, And now as the story has been unfolding more and more, And I've been getting more and more information on it, and I'm putting the pieces of the puzzle together, It has become clear, I think, What's going on.
Because the recent controversy that's come up here just in the past few weeks, apparently, is only the climax of a systematic campaign to try to discredit our ministry and then ultimately Worldview Weekend, because of our teachings concerning Freemasonry and the pagan in the occult. That has been the nutshell of it, and it all began apparently more than a year ago, When Kirk Cameron came out with his film Monumental, And in that film if you remember, Kirk Cameron is focusing on this pagan Masonic Monument and calling it his Gilgal stone and saying, this is what, this is the salvation of America, This is what America needs to focus on, and then we can be delivered from this path into darkness that we are pursuing etc. and so on.
Well, when that film came out, Brannon Howse, many of you will remember, at worldview Weekend, did a number of radio shows, And he spoke about this. And I also did some radio shows talking about it, but Brannon was convicted because he recognized that this monument was erected by Freemasons, It has all this pagan symbolism and it's simply not appropriate to refer to this monument as though it somehow or other represents Christianity. And indeed, one of the scholars associated with that monument at one point said that it simply does not really represent the pilgrims and what they believe. The pilgrims were Christians, there's no question in my mind about that, but if you read the account of the Plymouth plantation, By William Bradford, Bradford talks about how a neighboring colony at one point erected a maypole and then they were drinking and dancing about it, And he said "it is as though they have revived the pagan practices of the bacchanalia". The Bacchus worshippers Of the ancient world.
And then eventually they ended up cutting down the maypole, Because they recognized it as a pagan symbol.
Now the idea, to me, It is simply unbelievable to suggest that the Pilgrims would have in any way looked at this monument in Kirk Cameron's film and seen it as somehow or other a symbol of their faith. I think they would have lassoed it and I think they would have torn it to the ground. That's what I think.
And that is a picture of what we have been exposing in our films of course, and in particular the film "Riddles in Stone: The secret architecture of Washington DC." Which is at kind of the center of all this controversy.
5:11 Well it turns out that the person who had been attacking our ministry did not like the fact that Brannon , a year, year and a half ago, was speaking against Kirk Cameron, And all of this pagan symbolism. She didn't like that, and she didn't think Brannon needed to be doing that. Well then she sort of figured out that perhaps Brannon was somehow or another being influenced by me and our ministry, and the work that we've done in this regard, because, of course, I went on the radio with Brannon, and he and I were talking about this together.
So her assessment was that Brannon was somehow or other being negatively influenced by Pinto.
That's the idea. And so she said about a campaign to try to find a way to create a wedge and to get Brannon and Worldview Weekend To turn away from Chris Pinto and noise of thunder radio and to get Worldview Weekend to basically get rid of us. And this is something that she communicated in several of her emails and on her Facebook page. At one or two points she actually came out and said it, in fact we read it there at one point.
But this has been going on for about a year and a half. And this is really her purpose. But why is she doing it? What's her real motivation ?
Because she's angry that we're exposing the unfruitful works of darkness, just like were commanded to do in Ephesians 5:11, And that's part of the reason why I'm calling this show today Uproar at Ephesus, because this is exactly what happened in the New Testament in the book of acts of the apostles, When the apostle Paul was preaching at Ephesus.
And he was teaching the people "they are no gods that are made with hands."
7:14 When the pagan gods were confronted, there was an uproar. And I believe there's been this uproar going on at worldview weekend in much the same way.
Now it's important to remember the Bible says, & Paul says this in Ephesians Chapter 6, We wrestle not against flesh and blood, But against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, Against spiritual wickedness in the heavenlies. That's ultimately what all this is about.
And I believe that these dark powers, That lie behind these various idols, That we find, really, engraved throughout our country, Especially in Washington DC but in other areas as well, the Bible tells us that what's behind those things are demonic powers.
Remember Paul says when he's writing to the Corinthians he says "I tell you that the sacrifice which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrificed demons and not to God. And I would not that you had fellowship with demons." And he's saying this because they were Christians were going down to the temples, the various pagan temples, There in ancient Corinth and what do they have at those temples? Well there they have the Greek and Roman gods and goddesses. They have Apollo and Athena. They have Jupiter and Neptune and Mercury. And all of these are the gods of the ancient Greek and Roman world.
And these are the same images that you will find engraved all over Washington DC. And found inside the capital, found inside the library of Congress, I mean, this is what we show and this is what we expose in "riddles in stone."
Now when many people see that stuff, I mean your average Christian, is when they see these things, they are often led to believe that this is somehow or other evidence of our godly Christian heritage here in America.
And the reality is, I mean, you could call it a godly heritage, but it would be like calling ancient Egypt a godly environment, yeah they had a lots of different gods. But that's the kind of heritage that it is. It's all these different pagan gods. But they do not represent the one true God of the Bible. Not at all.
9:25 and the reality is that you could call it a godly heritage but it would be like calling ancient Egypt a 'godly' environment. Yeah, they had lots of different 'gods.' But that's the kind of heritage that it is. It's all these different pagan gods. But they do not represent the one true God of the Bible. Not at all. And we have found that what happens when ministers fail to put a difference between the holy and the profane, Ezekiel 22 when they fail to do that, and they start embracing these things that are pagan, the very next thing that usually happens from what I've seen is they will turn toward ecumenical philosophies, and of course this turned out to be the case with David Barton as many of you know, David Barton embraces the Revolutionaries in spite of their pagan philosophies. He embraces them as though they were Christians and consequently he leads tours in Wa DC commending the architecture and showing it as part of our godly heritage. And then he gets involved in these ecumenical crusades with Glenn Beck..."
11:10 And we saw the same thing happen to Kirk Cameron. (etc)
12:56 "…that God's people were entangled in idolatry. One way or the other, they would be worshiping Baal and Molech, and these other gods, they would be worshipping the Queen of Heaven, in Jeremiah over and over again, they were violating the first commandment. God says 'I am the Lord thy God, ye shall have no other gods. And that is what this person who has kept up these attacks for more than a year now, this is what they were really objecting to. And so the complaints came in from what I'm hearing, one after another after another, that Brannon needs to break fellowship with our ministry and have nothing to do with us and so on, and then all of this came to a head and then the latest, after hurling a series of stones, apparently, the latest stone was this episode with Bill Schnoebelen and grabbing hold of Bill Schnoebelen and trying to find ways to associate things that he has been teaching, really, completely apart of anything that he had to do with us. And trying to use these as stones to hurl in our direction. But it's important to understand that this is not really what this conflict was about. The conflict was about, for more than a year, that this person did not like the exposure of these unfruitful works of darkness. That's the issue. That pointing out the influence of Freemasonry, whether it's in architecture and especially in the churches. That we have an audio CD on Freemasonry in the church. Because that's where this becomes…you know
(14:55) if these monuments were just 'over there' and that were the end of it, we'd leave em over there. The problem is is that you have Christians who go and they grab hold of these monuments and they think that they're Christian icons, and then they begin embracing the philosophies that are associated with them and this is where it becomes very corrupting and that's why I say you cannot really argue that there's no consequence. If that were the case, all of these guys would not keep falling into ecumenical apostate compromise if there were no consequence. There is a consequence, and of course we're warned about this in the Scripture. But I believe that all this has happened now that the story is unfolded and we're learning more about what's the real motivation behind this. I believe what has happened has basically been just like the Upoar in ancient Ephesus."
"ok we are back, this is Chris Pinto, this is Noise of Thunder Radio , today on the show we are discussing the Uproar at Ephesus. Acts Chapter 19 starting in verse 23. Where we read… Paul has just now, he's, if you follow Paul's journeys, Paul, when he's on his missionary journeys he always seems to be followed by these scheming unbelieving Jews who were very likely members of the Pharisees and so on, who remembered Paul back when he was persecuting Christians.
"20:20 But this uproar at Ephesus is very very interesting. Because the context is well, it pertains as I said before, to the kind of things that we deal with in our ministry. Let's start at verse 23."
"The library of Congress is full of pagan imagery all througouth it's overwhelming . I've said before if you were to go to the Library of Congress, it looks like to me if you took that and you dropped it in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean and let it sit there for 100 years and let all the moss and you know the mold of the ocean and the barnacles and everything grow on it and then some diver went down below and saw it he would think he came across ancient Atlantis. That's how it looks. Very colorful but full of pagan imagery."
reads v 23-28 exegetes very basically (retells)
"All right so what's going on here? Well, what's going on is Paul is preaching the gospel but how's he doing it? He's not just focusing on Jesus, and saying well I'm just only going to talk to you about Jesus. I mean he certainly talks about the Lord Jesus Christ. And he says in one point in one of his letters, you know I determined to know nothing among you but Christ and him crucified. But here in Ephesus he recognizes that idolatry is a major issue. Just like when he was at Athens. And he notices they're worshipping all the idols there. And so now he's going down and he's teaching they are no gods who are made with hands, in other words these are false gods. So turn away from these false gods and put your faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. That's what Paul is preaching. And many people were turning away from the idolatry and as a result they were not going down to the silversmiths, smith house here, and buying these idols that they were and there were trinkets and everything that would go with them And so the silver smiths are losing money. That's what's happening. And so...
25:11 "But we remember now what Paul tells us now in Ephesians chapter 6, interestingly, in his letter to the Ephesians. He says we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in the Heavenlies. And while money and the idols may have been the motivation for Demetrius and his fellow craftsmen, they end up stirring up the whole city here over this issue. And why? It's because the image of Diana is cast down. There were still a lot of Diana worshippers. But if we're wrestling not against flesh and blood, what's really happening I believe is the demonic powers behind the scenes are stirred up because they are being put down by the preaching of the word of God through Paul and the proclamation of the gospel. Because Paul is showing a difference between the Holy and the profane. He is doing what the Lord Jesus Christ commanded. I have come to send you to the Gentiles. To turn them from darkness to light and from the power of Satan unto God.
Continues to exegete/retell
27:10 When Paul would have entered in unto the people the disciples suffered him not. Apparently they, the people are in an uproar, they've been stirred up now, by this silversmith, he's gotten a whole lynch mob together and they're grabbing these Christian disciples, these flowers of Paul and they're dragging them into this greek theater, and we can only imagine they're planning to do them harm, possibly to kill them. But they're clearly angry, furious at Paul and his followers for this offense that's been given to the great goddess Diana.
Continues to read at around v. 30 to v. 34
28:46 Notice, Alexander now, who's a disciple, he's trying to talk to them, he's trying to reason, but they won't listen, they're shouting him down. Great is Diana of the Ephesians!
reads v 35-41
"Ok so notice what happens here, this whole thing, these people are shouting, for the space of two hours they're crying out. And it says the whole city is in confusion. Filled with confusion. People are trying to talk. People are trying to reason , ration out, and explain things but it doesn't matter. They're in they frenzied uproar because the gods of Ephesus were threatened. And I believe that that is a picture of what has been happening here recently at Noise of Thunder Radio and at Worldview Weekend. That the pagan gods have been confronted and exposed and I found it very very peculiar that THAT has been the root cause of this uproar against our ministry and against the work that we've been trying to do. I find that very very interesting and very peculiar indeed. Now, I have to tell you brethren, that for the most part, during the last year I have known nothing about all this. We've been busy working on other projects, doing other things, but apparently they've been dealing with this at Worldview Weekend on and off for a time. And so it's all come to a head here just in the last month or so. But the reason I share that with you again is to communicate there's much more behind this whole thing than just how it appears on the surface looking at this point of conclusion that I feel we've come to. In fact, just going back to the book of Acts, this uproar happens that the assembly is dismissed and And after the uproar was ceased, Paul called unto him the disciples, and embraced them, and departed for to go into Macedonia. Paul gets on with his work of ministry and he goes back to doing the work that God had called him to do. And that is our hope, our heart, our hope and our prayer, is to simply press on through these things.
32:25 But I did want our listeners to know just, again, based upon at least one email that I got where there was somewhat of a misunderstanding, that there's more to this than meets the eye and that really it's the whole business of exposing the pagan gods and goddesses in our society. And the person who was involved or engaged in these attacks against us did not like that. Did not think that that was anything that we should be doing or that Brannon Howse should be doing over at Worldview Weekend. And so she was trying to divide and really create a wedge. There were a number of times when she, when this was openly admitted, but then she was caught in at least one lie by one of her own friends. Once these things were made known to us, this is where it all took a turn and we said ok. We've just got to take a stand on this. Make a statement because thing are being said which are untrue, we need to clarify things and then press on. And so that is our intention. We don't like the idea of holding a grudge or anything. We would pray God's grace and his deliverance through all of this. That is what we hope for all parties concerned. The Bible does say love your enemies. And we believe we're called to do that. And so there's no hatred here, not at all. We resist that sort of thing and we give thanks and praise and glory to God even in the midst of suffering and trial. But we press on now in the Lord Jesus Christ, we thank you for listening."