January 19, 2011

A thought from 11-24-10 Fighting For the Faith (Misadventures in Dubious Discernment)

(aside: for an update on the Ingrid/ChrisR situation please go here: http://www.purposedrivel.com/2013/09/a-great-announcement.html  Ingrid and Chris had reconciled.  This was a good thing.  We were all friends again.)

(2-25-2015 Further update here:
I am no longer a Pirate Christian supporter.  Too much hypocrisy, too many double standards, too many false accusations. I apologize for all the confusion.  I pray it won't happen again.)

I know you're all tired of this but Jason is re-listening to a bunch of the podcasts from the Fighting For the Faith Kimballgate saga. Since we talked to Chris on the phone we seem to have agreed (?) that the whole thing cannot be resolved without going back and picking through the whole thing. It's not that I'm doing this because I personally feel a need to think about this anymore, really. I am just serving as a sounding board for my husband who is the one doing this, for his friends who are having a disagreement. And sometimes I don't even want to do that. But what a guy. :-)

So today it's Misadventures in Dubious Discernment. Again. Last night he remarked that it was much harsher than he remembered it. I nodded quietly. He particularly commented on a line that said Deb Dombrowksi was in egregious sin and needed to repent. My question was "or else what?" He didn't really have an answer, and didn't think there was an 'or else' implied. Well... I have my doubts, but ok.

Just now we were listening to this segment in the 11-24 program. The time stamp is approximate as my Itunes seems to be messing them up a bit when I rewind and fast forward. I'm going to emphasize a couple of passages that seem to.. um.. well, that don't seem to go together consistently.

"based upon (Deb's) Logic, I've gotta be a Bridger too because I taught a class at George Fox University with Doug Pagitt..."
I suppose that's possible. I don't see it *yet,* and no one that I'm aware of has said this sort of thing publicly yet either, aside from Chris. But it is always a danger when one consorts with wolves and compromisers.
1:01:39 -- "Dan Kimball was invited to speak at a Conference at George Fox U along with Leonard Sweet. Now one of the things that I think that Dan Kimball has done that is not good is that he has linked to Leonard Sweet in such a way that it looks like he's endorsing his teaching. I think that is clear....(snip) By the way I taught at George Fox University with Doug Pagitt. I did not even for a moment engage in any contemplative spirituality. And neither did Doug. And on top of it get this, yeah um, Doug and I well we talked theology. Twice. While in the same room together, while there was food in the room. It's true..."
Deb and Ingrid then go on explaining Leonard Sweet's heresy for a bit and point out the photos taken with Dan and Leonard Sweet together. I'm thinking THIS photograph might be the one she is taking issue with here. This segment ends with Ingrid saying "we are not to participate with those who are teaching spiritual darkness."
"Ok stop, how are you defining participate? You're not to participate with those who are teaching spiritual darkness. I completely agree. How did Dan Kimball participate in teaching spiritual darkness with Leonard Sweet? That's the thing that has to be proven. You can't prove that from a photograph. You would need to hear quotes where Dan Kimball was promoting Leonard Sweet's teaching and saying "this idea he had, x y or z that's clearly contrary to the word of God, I think it's cool and you all should believe it too." What does it mean to participate with those who are teaching spiritual darkness? I co-taught a class, an apologetics class with Doug Pagitt and we took opposing views, rather passionately opposing views, regarding the origins of evil, how we define it, and whether or not theodicy disproves the existence of God,".

Hmm I wonder if this was a redeeming, respectful style. Kind of sounds like a debate to me.

"But I co-taught a class with Doug Pagitt. Does that mean I am participating in spiritual darkness? Not on your life. The only way I would have been participating in it is if I had been agreeing with it or sitting there on my hands and biting my lip and saying nothing while Doug was spewing his false doctrine. This is not how you do discernment."
Huh. Interesting.

At this point I turned to Jason and said "did he... just say--"

"Hm, yeah that kind of opens things up a bit doesn't it...?" he replied.

I like it when my husband is able to read my mind. It doesn't happen too often.

So here's Dan talking about Len Sweet from the link above to which Ingrid was referring:
Len Sweet - I have gotten to know Len as he was my Doctor of Ministry professor and we also have spoken at conferences together a few times now. But as usual, he was profound, Jesus-focused, and mesmerizing as he raises up issues 10 years ahead of most others. So I love listening to whatever he is saying and never a dull moment of whatever he is speaking about.

Also, it was great getting to hang out with Chuck Conniry, Robin Baker and Sarah Baldwin from George Fox University and Lance Ford and Aaron Snow from Shapevine. See some friends briefly like Elizabeth and Greg and texting back and forth with my friend Rick McKinley who I was sending cell phone photos too while on the panel. I am back at George Fox University in 2 weeks teaching a class and speaking in the chapel, so I will be glad to go back and also Becky and Katie and Claire on coming on that trip so that is extra fun.

I have to say what was beautiful about this event was that it was so Jesus focused. We were all diverse, but I felt such a kindred heart with the other panelists. I really felt like we were in this whole crazy mission "together". It's hard to tangibly put words to it, but I really sensed that with this group. I truly pray that leaders and Christians will unite together around this mission - and be joyful in the diversity, but our common heart of evangelism/mission and the gospel of Jesus. I came out so refreshed and honored to serve with this group. So thank you George Fox Seminary and Shapevine and Alan and Frank and MaryKate and Len.
He also sang the praises of Frank Viola - and I know Chris doesn't care for Viola either, from back when I asked about Jesus Manifesto about a year and a half or so ago - he made no hesitation in declaring it emergent gobbledygook.

And yeah, Dan's favorites links still look bad. I thought in one place Chris said he contacted Dan, concerned about who he was linking to, and Dan took it down? Then why is Catalyst still in his faves? Not to mention Jesus Creed (although the link hasn't been updated in a while), Eric Bryant of Mosaic LA (Erwin McManus' church), and Origins (which is supposedly orthodox just like Lausanne and Acts 29, but hey, how orthodox can they be with Erwin McManus's influence? But hey... they believe in the creeds. It even says so here.