November 30, 2010

Chris Rosebrough's heresy chart and the false separation of Deeds and Creeds

******************
(note as of 2-24-2015: I am no longer a Pirate Christian supporter.  On 9-2013 there was an update on the Ingrid/ChrisR situation - please go here: http://www.purposedrivel.com/2013/09/a-great-announcement.html  Ingrid and Chris had reconciled.  This was a good thing.  We were all friends again.)

 Further update here:
http://www.purposedrivel.com/2015/02/tullian-and-nadia-birds-of-feather.html
I am no longer a Pirate Christian supporter.  Too much hypocrisy, too many double standards, too many false accusations. I apologize for all the confusion.  I pray it won't happen again.)
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Oh, if only it were so simple as to be able to place people in one of four categories.

Only problem is, God puts people in one of two categories. Believer or Unbeliever. Forgiven or Unforgiven.

I also found this article from Modern Reformation By Michael Horton which speaks of the same issue:

Creeds and Deeds
"Not even in Corinth, where strife, immorality, greed, and the profaning of the Lord's Supper threatened the peace and purity of the church, did Paul seem to think that the problem was deeds rather than creeds. He always thought that when believers were "acting up," the first recourse was to preach the gospel again, to recall believers to their one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one Spirit. At the same time, even where the focus of the problem was doctrinal (as in Galatians), he did not fail to point up the spiritual and ethical issues involved. And even where the focus of the problem was spiritual and ethical, he did not fail to preach the doctrine. Paul would have considered it inconceivable that a church might have its doctrine right but be uninterested in missions, evangelism, prayer, and works of service and charity to those in need-or, conversely, that a church might be faithful in life apart from sound doctrine. Orthodoxy and orthopraxy were inseparable and mutually dependent elements of Paul's message."
(all emphases mine)

November 28, 2010

A Lutheran Review of the Purpose Driven life (by Steven R J Parks)

I have been looking for this article for a while now, and happened across Daniel Neades' blog post from September 28, 2010 which quotes large portions of the article. I have been unable to locate the direct link but only the google cached copy. Everything I could find linking to critiques of the Purpose Driven Life on theoriginal site has been removed. This does not sound good to me.

You can see that they had some discussion over the article originally but all these other links on this page and this page have been taken down.

There is a note on their front page now that says "Once again, we have had to redo our website because of the frequent and serious attacks our site received. We have moved to a new host company with, hopefully, better protection against attacks."

Hmm do you think Rick Warren's supporters were flooding them with hate mail? I wouldn't be surprised. But maybe we'll never know.

Anyway, here is the original article. I had to copy and paste it bit by bit because the formatting wasn't agreeing with my blogging software. This allowed me to keep the links, which link back to the original blog in case they ever put it back up.

This article is especially helpful in understanding the problem, for those who actually still think Rick Warren "keeps things simple and practical."

PDF VERSION HERE

November 25, 2010

Thinking About Orthodoxy (Better Than Sacrifice)


(aside: for an update on the Ingrid/ChrisR/Chris/Me situation please go here: http://www.purposedrivel.com/2013/09/a-great-announcement.html)



Daniel Neades has written a LONG but brilliant piece analyzing the Rosebrough/Kimball situation.
In this article Daniel makes the case that Dan Kimball is not really orthodox, as both Chris and Dan are claiming.
Also, this morning Jason articulated something we have been saying for most of this two weeks, but articulated more specifically than either of us has so far:

Given that Guilt By Association is a form of Ad Hominem -AND THAT ad hominems are NOT always fallacious depending on how they are used.

November 23, 2010

Ingrid Schlueter Clarifies a Statement That Was Misunderstood

******************
(note as of 2-24-2015: I am no longer a Pirate Christian supporter.  On 9-2013 there was an update on the Ingrid/ChrisR situation - please go here: http://www.purposedrivel.com/2013/09/a-great-announcement.html  Ingrid and Chris had reconciled.  This was a good thing.  We were all friends again.)

 Further update here:
http://www.purposedrivel.com/2015/02/tullian-and-nadia-birds-of-feather.html
I am no longer a Pirate Christian supporter.  Too much hypocrisy, too many double standards, too many false accusations. I apologize for all the confusion.  I pray it won't happen again.)
*****************



Ingrid issued a clarification at the very beginning of the Crosstalk show today regarding a statement she made on her "Beware the Bridgers" program last week:
"Last Tuesday, I hosted a program with Deborah Dombrowski of Lighthouse Trails Publishing on the subject of 'Bridge People' and how these pastors and leaders who are not separating biblically from false teachers are causing division and spiritual harm as they BRIDGE the gap between Christianity and the false spirituality that we're seeing emerge all over the place today. The subject was not heretics themselves, that publishing books and speaking at conferences, but rather those who serve as 'bridge people' to this new emergent spirituality by their refusal to be clear, and their refusal to warn about the others and their affiliation with those who are teaching false doctrine.

More on BSF's downgrade (from DoNotBeSurprised)

Do Not Be Surprised has quite a few posts on BSF that I thought I would share. Thank you Erin for sending that along.

Since the great delusion is flooding into every Christian group, program, and church, it is no surprise to find it in BSF also. Do Not Be Surprised, I guess!

Emergents/Emergings T Jones, A Jones, Pagitt, Kimball, Burke, McLaren, Seay are ALL Orthodox!

They even said so!


By Tony Jones, Doug Pagitt, Spencer Burke, Brian McLaren, Dan Kimball, Andrew Jones, Chris Seay

We offer this in response to recent criticisms, with the hope that it will cause some to better understand us and others to find hope in a document that they can sign on to.

Emergent Village's response to critics:

PDF version here


"Sixth, we would like to clarify, contrary to statements and inferences made by some, that yes, we truly believe there is such a thing as truth and truth matters – if we did not believe this, we would have no good reason to write or speak; no, we are not moral or epistemological relativists any more than anyone or any community is who takes hermeneutical positions – we believe that radical relativism is absurd and dangerous, as is arrogant absolutism; yes, we affirm the historic Trinitarian Christian faith and the ancient creeds, and seek to learn from all of church history – and we honor the church’s great teachers and leaders from East and West, North and South; yes, we believe that Jesus is the crucified and risen Savior of the cosmos and no one comes to the Father except through Jesus; no, we do not pit reason against experience but seek to use all our God-given faculties to love and serve God and our neighbors; no, we do not endorse false dichotomies – and we regret any false dichotomies unintentionally made by or about us (even in this paragraph!); and yes, we affirm that we love, have confidence in, seek to obey, and strive accurately to teach the sacred Scriptures, because our greatest desire is to be followers and servants of the Word of God, Jesus Christ. We regret that we have either been unclear or misinterpreted in these and other areas."


Chris better apologize for calling them heretics. And he better be lining them up to be on his show. And apologize to Rick Warren for calling him a pelagian. I mean, if he wants people to take his proposed ethical code seriously!

Chris Rosebrough Reverts to Pietism

(aside: for an update on the Ingrid/ChrisR situation please go here: http://www.purposedrivel.com/2013/09/a-great-announcement.html  Ingrid and Chris had reconciled.  This was a good thing.  We were all friends again.)

(2-25-2015 Further update here:
http://www.purposedrivel.com/2015/02/tullian-and-nadia-birds-of-feather.html
I am no longer a Pirate Christian supporter.  Too much hypocrisy, too many double standards, too many false accusations.)



http://www.facebook.com/piratechristian/posts/174881612538050

or
Chris's New Law

Chris has turned a corner. And now he's in the seedy part of town, deciding he can fix all the problems of people not seeing eye to eye in the ODM "industry."

Chris Rosebrough
I've begun working on a Discernment Ethics Standard. It's painfully clear to me that something like this is LONG overdue.
5 hours ago via TweetDeck · Like · Comment

Chris Rosebrough ​@Tom - most industries have standards. Since Discernment is becoming more like a mini industry and some Discernment Shops have quality products while others, not so much. It's time to put some industry standards in place to ratchet up the quality and weed out the poor quality shops.
4 hours ago · Like · 1 person

Chris Rosebrough ​@Marlene - I've been in conversations with others in the Discernment Camp and there are a few of us who think that something like this is long overdue and if it had been in place prior to this incident it wouldn't have gone down the way it did.
4 hours ago · Like · 1 person


Name these "others" Chris. I wonder if CARM could be one after the email discussion My husband and I just had with Kendell Cook, wherein I was told that everyone he's spoken to (again unnamed) thinks I have a screw loose ("dislodged a screw" is the exact phrase) and that I ought to pipe down to save what little face I have left to save. And "Why isn't your husband dealing with this publicly?" 


(Um... he has been. Jason did write back to him immediately on all of those, and all I can say is young Kendell brought a knife to a gunfight there, even if it was just a spelling bee.  Response from Master Kendell?  *crickets*  *crickets*)

So, speaking of ethics violations... I guess we can insult people in private as long as we are nice and loving on our blogs!

November 22, 2010

A couple of additional Kimball pdf's

******************
(note as of 2-24-2015: I am no longer a Pirate Christian supporter.  On 9-2013 there was an update on the Ingrid/ChrisR situation - please go here: http://www.purposedrivel.com/2013/09/a-great-announcement.html  Ingrid and Chris had reconciled.  This was a good thing.  We were all friends again.)

 Further update here:
http://www.purposedrivel.com/2015/02/tullian-and-nadia-birds-of-feather.html
I am no longer a Pirate Christian supporter.  Too much hypocrisy, too many double standards, too many false accusations. I apologize for all the confusion.  I pray it won't happen again.)
*******************


So that people can get a fuller picture of what was being discussed on fb...

Chris defines guilt by association and has fun knocking down strawmen (remember that after this he played the Monty Python witch hunt thing to explain what he thought of our supposed "guilt by association" tactic)



I will also add this to my initial post Chris Rosebrough needs an intervention.

Chris's response to me so far has been basically to reiterate all he's said, and then ask me essentially "what are the charges you have against me."

I guess he'll just keep asking until he gets the answer he wants. Maybe I should just tell him oh, no charges, everything's fine. Right as rain. Have a nice day!

BSF Bible Study Fellowship going contemplative/emergent?

I have never been able to attend a BSF yet but I know lots of people do. Someone asked me about the new Isaiah curriculum and what I thought, but I didn't have any information or experience so I started looking. In the process I found this blog post so I thought I would pass the information along:

http://kimolsen.wordpress.com/2010/08/03/bsf-bible-study-fellowship-going-contemplative-going-off-the-narrow-path/

excerpt:

Ms. Rowan stood on stage and told us a story. A group of people from a Kansas City church had surrounded her to give her a blessing. They all laid hands on her and prayed in tongues over her.
...
On the last day of our leaders meeting for the year, my fears were realized. We receive a magazine with recommended books to read during the break. On the list was a book by Dallas Willard, a known contemplative/emergent. Also a verse was given from the apostate translation of the Bible, “The Message.”

read more at DiscernIt

November 21, 2010

More on the dearth of conviction in the ECM (Dan Kimball/TeamPyro)

I was pointed to this 3 year old article about Dan Kimball and Mark Driscoll and others in the Emerging/Emergent church.

More on the dearth of conviction in the ECM
Now, if Dan holds true to the interview Chris did with him, he'd say something like: "that was so three years ago! I've changed!" and then halfway through the interview he'll say "I'm teaching exactly what I have taught for 20 years."

If so, I haven't seen evidence of it in anything he's written on his blog. He still thinks he can consort with and recommend heretics and not confront their errors, and expect us all to cheer because he's a nice guy and recommends we all be nice. Well, Dan, we're trying, believe it or not. So stop nagging.

I guess Phil Johnson is guilty of violating the 8th commandment according to Chris Rosebrough now.



******************
(note as of 2-24-2015: I am no longer a Pirate Christian supporter.  On 9-2013 there was an update on the Ingrid/ChrisR situation - please go here: http://www.purposedrivel.com/2013/09/a-great-announcement.html  Ingrid and Chris had reconciled.  This was a good thing.  We were all friends again.)

 Further update here:
http://www.purposedrivel.com/2015/02/tullian-and-nadia-birds-of-feather.html
I am no longer a Pirate Christian supporter.  Too much hypocrisy, too many double standards, too many false accusations. I apologize for all the confusion.  I pray it won't happen again.)

Is Dan Kimball Really Holding Fast The Good Confession?

July 3, 2005 – Holding Fast the Good Confession
Topical – Pastor Bob DeWaay

(Yes, I know Bob has been demoted, but his teaching has been very good, and since then, he has been submitting to correction, which as he says here in this sermon is a mark of a preacher/teacher who is of the spirit of truth.)

Bob makes a case about not being straightforward about the truth of the gospel. Evasion is denial.

In Galatians according to Paul's report: "The problem wasn't Peter's doctrine it was his practice."

I think this applies to Dan Kimball, and this is why many are suspicious of him and why it is completely unreasonable of Chris to ask us to do 'research' and demand proof that Dan has taught heresy. Based on that unreasonable request, he has accused many of lying about a brother in Christ. But silence or a lack of evidence = denial so actually, the burden of proof is on Dan or Chris. Just today I found an article from 2005 where Dan is quoting Henri Nouwen favorably about 'forgiving the church' if it hurts us. What does the apostate mystic Nouwen know about the real church? Maybe what he really should have called this article was "Learning how to Ignore the Church's Valid Correction."

Sure, on Chris's Monday interview with Dan, Dan made some rudimentary confessions that Christ died for his sins on the cross. But how is that any different from what Mormons or Roman Catholics believe? The Galatians and the Judaizers made this confession as well, but received a strong rebuke from Paul anyway for that one little iota they added.

I hope Chris will listen to this and see that we aren't all running around with 'loose screws' just because we don't just take his word as gospel truth.

Partial Transcript:
"What we're being called to is a forthright public confession of the person and work of Jesus Christ that is so profound that our lives will never be the same again because we have confessed this, and that we are willing to live out the implications of that confession by God's grace.

...We may fail but God will bring us back...

I want to show you how this matter of confessing is a discernment tool. This will give you an objective tool so that you can know when you hear a teaching, whether it's from God or not. This is absolutely objective. And you don't have to have some subjective buzzer that goes off when you hear something wrong like one guy claimed. It doesn't work that way. If that was true, there wouldn't be 25,000 people in this church down in Texas [Lakewood]. Their 'buzzer' isn't going off. IF they were to follow this (because that pastor was on Larry King Live and didn't confess), they would have known. You have an objective tool. Here's what it says.

"Beloved do not believe every spirit but tests the spirits to see whether it is from God." Why? "Because many false prophets have gone out into the world." Now here's something we just learned. The spirits are speaking through people. False prophets have gone out and they don't come out with a sign that says 'false.' They don't wear a certain kind of clothing to mark them out from the true. The only way you're going to know when you're hearing a false prophet is to use objective criteria for discernment. They are coming out with a message to preach that comes from a spiritual source they say is coming from the Holy Spirit. We don't have to just wonder. We don't have to look and see how many people were shouting and jumping how many were slain under the power, how many got all excited or how many gave an offering or how many say this is a wonderful man of God. All of that is distracting. It doesn't help.

We need to use the tool God gave us to objectively determine where the teaching came from. Let's read about it in verses 2 and 3. "By this you know the Spirit of God. Every Spirit that confesses!" Here's our word again that we're studying. Homologia "to say the same thing as." in the Greek. "Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God. and Every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. And this is the spirit of antichrist that you have heard is coming and is now already in the world. So there is an anointing, antichrist, anti christos, substitute anointing, so there are anointed ones out there who are claiming to speak for God, they claim to be great men of God, or women of God as the case may be and they claim to have the words of God, but we may be misled. We may be listening to something that's not from the Holy Spirit. So John wrote this so that we could know objectively and clearly who is speaking for God. And what he tells us is this. That those people who are anointed by the Holy Spirit as speaking from the Holy Spirit WILL CONFESS. Now this doesn't mean merely utter the words. You can put a gun to somebody's head and they can say "Jesus Christ came in the flesh, I'll admit it." The demons believe Jesus Christ came in the flesh. But they're not going to preach the gospel, because they're opposed to that. This confession has to do with everything I'm talking about today. The full orb of what a Christian confessor looks like. One who preaches the gospel of Jesus Christ, who without hypocrisy applies the implications of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and doesn't evade the gospel of Jesus Christ and who was willing to live accordingly even if it means coming under church discipline or correction like Peter did. Such a person will be glad to be corrected. A confessor confesses the person and work of Christ. Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is John's shorthand way of talking about the whole doctrine of the incarnation and everything that it has to do with.

"Coming in the flesh:" that implies pre-existence. Not just born the way anyone was born, he came as born of the virgin Mary. In the flesh he lived out his life. In the flesh he lived a sinless life. In the flesh he was nailed to the cross bodily. In the flesh, he literally shed real blood for sins and in the flesh he came out of the grave, bodily raised still bearing the marks of Calvary so that he could show Thomas, so that Thomas would believe in Jesus Christ. And that is the content and you can read every sermon in the book of Acts and we'll see what it looks like to confess Jesus Christ coming in the flesh. In boldness they proclaimed to all whether they were Jews gathered at Pentecost, God-fearers in the household of Cornelius, Jewish leaders listening to Stephen, Athenian philosophers on Mars Hill, jailers, the praetorian guard in Rome, whoever came in contact with the New Testament apostles heard the exact same message proclaimed bodly without equivocation, without fear, and wthout evasion: "Who is Jesus Christ, what did he do, and why do we need him? Repent and believe the gospel." That will be the hallmark the calling card of every true preacher who is from the Holy Spirit.

Now notice here it says "Every spirit that does not confess." Silence is enough to prove the person is not from God. They don't have to actually come out and deny because silence is a denial when confession is called for. You say nothing if you are called into a court of law to be a witness, and by the way the word witness "marturion," closely linked in the NT to the word homologia, because you want to make the good confession in front of many witnesses, that's what Timothy did. Now if you're called into court to bear witness to certain facts, you're asked to swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Right? You're not there to evade. And if you're hauled before the court and you were there and you saw what happened, and you just won't say anything. I suppose you could plead the fifth if you were the guilty party, but let's say you're just a bystander who saw what happened. You have to say explicitly what you saw. You can't just shut up or evade or say nothing. You'd be held in contempt
...
Not confessing is evading. Silence means that you're not from God. So if we are witnesses of the person and work of Jesus Christ, and we're asked to testify as to the reason for the hope that is within us and we give a muted evasive non-clear answer, it's not satisfactory. It wouldn't be satisfactory in a human court. Now how much more is this required of a preacher? How much more when we get behind a pulpit? Is God satisfied if we entertain, if we have witty aphorisms about wisdom in life, we're able to make you happy, we're able to tell you how to have springs on your buggy so you have a smoother ride through life... that's not confessing and it fails this test.

Let's look at verse 5 now. This is very very telling. I think this verse here explains the whole seeker movement. “They are from the world therefore they speak as from the world. And the world listens to them.” Brothers and sisters if we speak the world’s language they’ll like us! They won’t persecute us. They want to hear, what does the world want to hear right now? Well we live in a mystical world so we’ll give them a mystic Christianity. We live in a relativistic world, we’ll give them a relativistic Christianity. We live in a postmodern world, we’ll give them a postmodern Christianity. We live in a world where they gave up on knowing the truth so we won’t give them any truth we’ll just give them a spiritual experience. We’ll just light some candles or we’ll just set the mood. Or we live in a world where people want to solve life’s problems, they want to live a better life, they don’t want to find out about heaven and hell and blood atonement and doctrine and all that stuff, so we won’t give them doctrine. We’ll give them practical life application. Brothers and sisters, that is the message that the world will listen to! Yes they will, and they will be your friend, and they’ll give you money and they’ll give you endorsements and they’ll ask you to speak at their conventions and you can be a big popular man in this world. But what does it say. They are from the world, therefore they speak as from the world. How dare us as Christians speak as from the world when we really don’t believe the world’s message? We are not allowed that option. I am not allowed to speak so that you think somehow what I have is the world’s wisdom. It has to be God’s wisdom from the Bible.

Notice the rest of this verse: “We are from God, he who knows God listens to us. He who is not from God does not listen to us. “ We don’t have any neutral middle ground here. And so therefore we have the decision to make. A very clear decision. Who do we want to appeal to. What audience are we looking for. If we’re preaching the gospel forthrightly and clearly, we realize right up front that it guarantees a much smaller audience. Narrow is the gate and narrow is the path that leads to eternal life. Absolutely. It’s guaranteed you’ll have less of an audience. The world has a lot of people. Billions of them. And there is a wide path with multitudes on it and if we want them to listen to us, we’re getting ourselves in trouble because now we’ve got to change our message. This isn’t just a matter of how clever you can be or how winsome you can be or how compelling you can be, it’s a matter of the actual content of the message and that’s an either or. Either the gospel, confess clearly OR some mixture that the world won’t even notice is NOT the gospel OR (is) the gospel, they don’t care, it sounds good to them.

I’m making the claim that what we’re being sold in modern evangelicalism is an ungodly mixture that appeals to the world. And we need to start preaching what the people who know God will listen to.

And you might say well if we’re gonna do that then we’re not concerned about reaching the lost! And I would say ABSOLUTELY NOT. That is the biggest lie you could ever hear. If we are really concerned about reaching the lost, we will preach the gospel, the only means God uses to SAVE the lost. And um, you can have a huge audience of worldly people and most of them are going to get mad at you, but God will save SOME. And those are the ones he was going to save. And they will come. And they will listen to us.

And so we have to determine right here and now what is the message of the church, what are we going to invest our money in, what are we going to invest our time in, what are we passionate about, and what are we going to proclaim, and be willing right here and now to say Lord, if that means a small audience, only that little flock that knows God, so be it! Thank God, that’s who I want to be with.

Notice he says he who is not from God does not listen to us. They’ll either be converted or they’ll get mad and they’ll leave. When we go out on the streets we preach the message the gospel. They’re either converted or they eat their hamburger and go home. But they hear the gospel. “By this we know” - notice this is not difficult, that’s what just boggles my mind. Honestly I can’t understand what’s going on in the church world today. Because this discernment isn’t hard, but there’s such a lack of it. Look at how easy it is. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. This is our objective discernment tool. It’s the best tool you’ll ever have...

This is your godly discernment tool and it will keep you out of trouble. Is this the gospel? Is it coming from the spirit of God, is it proclaimed forthrightly? Remember Peter at one point wasn’t straightforward about the truth of the gospel. Are we straightforward about the truth of the gospel, and is the message that we’re hearing designed to appeal to those who know God or is our message designed to appeal to those in the world? Ask those questions and you’ve got your discernment. And you know what the very very scary sobering answer is? Most of the evangelical church is in error right now because of massive apostasy. I couldn’t believe it if I didn’t see it happen.


Bob does finish the message with the glorious good news that we all fail in this matter in many ways, because of our fear of man. But he offers forgiveness through Christ's shed blood on the cross.

Now, compare that to this:



The Christian Bubble Part 2 from CrossPoint Church on Vimeo.

Dan Kimball - They Like Jesus But Not The Church



I pray Dan will confess his fear of man and stop looking to the world for guidance on how he should be publicly preaching and teaching.

November 19, 2010

Chris Rosebrough needs an intervention (UPDATED)

******************
(note as of 2-24-2015: I am no longer a Pirate Christian supporter.  On 9-2013 there was an update on the Ingrid/ChrisR situation - please go here: http://www.purposedrivel.com/2013/09/a-great-announcement.html  Ingrid and Chris had reconciled.  This was a good thing.  We were all friends again.)

 Further update here:
http://www.purposedrivel.com/2015/02/tullian-and-nadia-birds-of-feather.html
I am no longer a Pirate Christian supporter.  Too much hypocrisy, too many double standards, too many false accusations. I apologize for all the confusion.  I pray it won't happen again.)
*****************


Yes, ladies, I don't hide our past fights.  You Brannon and Pinto groupies are the censors. I had tried to go through and find all the posts pertaining to that fight, and add an update, but I apparently missed one.  (Thank you for notifying me!)  So now they are all tittering over it on Brannon's wall and thinking there's something they can exploit here. Sorry to disappoint! Reconciliation is a wonderful thing. Maybe Brannon and Pinto ought to learn about it sometime. It can be had in Christ, when one confesses their sins to one another and repents and forgives the other, because Christ as forgiven us so much.

I remained silent except on my Facebook wall for most of this past week, since Chris Rosebrough apparently went off his rocker for the second time (the first being the August Ground Zero Mosque debacle when Keith Olbermann, Nancy Pelosi, Barak Obama, and Bill Press started to make sense to him). This week it seemed he was no longer listening to anyone, and his error was so grievous that I defriended him, so I wouldn't feel tempted to bother him anymore. I am just tired.

Jason and some of my more level-headed online friends have taken him to task, however, and they are much more diplomatic than I. I hoped they would be able to talk sense to him, but it seems he is getting worse and worse. I grieve for his declining spiritual health.

This is no longer about Dan Kimball, this is about Chris.

Here are some pdf's of discussions that happened last week. You can click on the time stamp on these pdf's and they should take you to the original posts.
  1. Chris and his Emergent Buddies
  2. Chris says Ken Silva Agrees with him
  3. Chris's summary of what he thinks of Dan Kimball
  4. Chris posts pictures of his day with Dan Kimball
  5. I post Dan's videos on the Christian Bubble, which Chris doesn't see a problem with
  6. Brian McLaren's autograph thread
The situation keeps deteriorating. On Monday Chris played Dan on his show:

On Saturday Ingrid posted this:

Ingrid played this on Tuesday (instead of Wednesday):

Part 2 will be next Wednesday (11-20), she says "Lord willing."

UPDATE ADDED HERE:

So that people can get a fuller picture of what was being discussed on fb...

Chris defines guilt by association and has fun knocking down strawmen (remember that after this he played the Monty Python witch hunt thing to explain what he thought of our supposed "guilt by association" tactic)



(END UPDATE)

Also note that Ingrid has explained that her poor sentence construction conveyed some misinformation; she has apologized to Chris for that and will be issuing a clarification/retraction. What she said on her program was this came to her attention because "an online Christian apologist and podcaster decided to push forward, on his Facebook page initially, Dan Kimball. This particular apologist and podcaster makes a habit of traveling around to Emerging Church conferences and dialoguing with some of the leading emergent church teachers. And has in the past posted photos of himself, arms around some of these false teachers like Jay Bakker, Nadia Bolz-Weber, Tony Jones, the latest of which was Dan Kimball. He called Dan Kimball a brother in Christ, and a friend, as he called the others."

It's been explained to Chris that she meant that him calling them 'friend' to apply to Kimball as well as the others, but not the "brother in Christ." He has forgiven Ingrid (well that's big of him) for her poor sentence construction. However he did not chide either person there for calling her a liar.

There have been phone calls going back and forth as well, and he is only digging in his heels more. What is going on with him? Frankly I wouldn't trust him to converse privately without recording the conversation right about now.

On his podcast the day after the Dan Kimball interview, he played the Monty Python Witch Trial to illustrate what he thinks of those who disagree. Mock heresy if you wish, but it does not pay to mock your friends when they are trying to warn you out of their love for you (imperfect as they are). Niceness seems to be much more important to Chris and his followers these days. This is exactly what Piper started talking like before he succumbed to the Purpose Driven Pope.

Chris has mocked those of us who tried to warn him and Bob about going to see Rick Warren a few years back as well. They both kind of pooh-poohed us then, and Chris continues to laugh about that now, not even seeing how it has borne fruit. When people warn you, it is because they care, and they know you are capable of being deceived just like anyone else. The whole attitude of "Don't worry about me, I'll be fine" is a prideful one. I know I can be corrupted from past experience trying to carry on long 'relational' dialogues with unbelievers. I have found myself wandering and rationalizing a lot of things that I at one time never dreamed I would do.

He's been equating those who disagree with his assessment of Kimball as pharisees who accused Jesus of eating with sinners. So because we are skeptical because of a rather scanty and mostly seeker-sensitive oriented public record, we are somehow sinning and bearing false witness? Speaking of poor reasoning skills...he asks for proof that Dan is teaching heresy. All one has to do is point to Chris's assessment of Rick Warren as a Pelagian, because all the same supports he has there apply to what is publicly available of Dan. He should now be apologizing to Rick Warren. And frankly, the way things have been going, I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

If there is all this public record of Dan distancing himself from these heretical people he consorts with, where is it? And Kimball saying "Oh, I don't agree with some of those things anymore" doesn't count. Which things? Who from your former associations have you discovered are heretical? Because he doesn't seem to ever name them, I have a hard time swallowing his private confessions to Chris as orthodox. This is the same sort of evasion you get when you confront a purpose-driven pastor who says "Well, I don't agree with everything Rick Warren says..." but never gets any more specific. He just uses a ton of words to convince you he agrees with you, all while saying nothing at all.

There is a long list of us who are concerned. I removed Chris as friend last week, because I felt I would monopolize his wall again and I felt he was being so irrational that it would do no good to argue. Jason, my husband, and Daniel Neades have been writing to him non-stop for much of the last week, without making much headway.

There have been phone calls going back and forth among some of the ODM's which Chris has not responded well to; he only gets angry. What is going on with him?

To top it off, Connie Waters of Outlaw Preachers is laughing and inviting him over to Outlaw Preachers where he will be welcomed with open arms (Really? Why would they want good solid law and gospel over there?) and he is laughing right along with her! Should that not give any discerning Christian pause, if Connie is ok with hanging out with him and mocking his friends on his own Facebook page (with kudos from him)? A good rule of thumb Chris, when the wolves are grinning at you, it's not because they're offended by the truth. You're either becoming one of them, or they plan to eat you for dinner.

Another rule of thumb, when the heretics sense of humor and mockery of your Christian friends sounds more appealing to you than your imperfect friends (Yeah, sometimes we're not as "nice" as those sweet heretics), it might be time to stop drinking (the emergent ale) and have someone drive you home.

November 17, 2010

New Agers embrace Rick Warren as one of their own

This is very telling, a post I was sent from a friend from Rapture Ready forum:
New Agers Embrace "Guru" Rick Warren as One of Their Own
the New Agers consider Rick Warren an important guru. We know enough about that community that despite Richard Abanes' false protestations that Rick Warren is "anti-New Age," the New Agers would not feature him unless they were convinced on very good authority that he was "one of them

He is about the 40th name down, but as you scroll down, look at the other names he has the privilege of being co guru's with

http://www.numii.net/word_press/gurus

Oh and his admitted pluralism and one world religion agenda out of his own mouth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rB738lWZJ-c

********
the direct link to Rick's NUMII page is here

November 16, 2010

CrossTalk "Beware the Bridgers" (Dan Kimball) *(UPDATED)

Ingrid did her show on the Dan Kimball issue today.


I was thinking it was going to be Wednesday, but apparently she pushed it up a day, so I'm taking a listen now.

UPDATE: Ingrid stated in the show:

"an online Christian apologist and podcaster decided to push forward, on his Facebook page initially, Dan Kimball. This particular apologist and podcaster makes a habit of traveling around to Emerging Church conferences and dialoguing with some of the leading emergent church teachers. And has in the past posted photos of himself, arms around some of these false teachers like Jay Bakker, Nadia Bolz-Weber, Tony Jones, the latest of which was Dan Kimball. He called Dan Kimball a brother in Christ, and a friend, as he called the others."

It's been relayed also to Chris by some on facebook after he accused her of lying that she meant that him calling them 'friend' to apply to Kimball as well as the others, but not the "brother in Christ." (I could see for myself that it was poor sentence construction when I first heard it, and I know that she was even commenting previously on the very photo of Bakker, Weber, and Jones in question so she knew what had been said.) It is odd that Chris was unwilling to put the best construction on her words here and ask her about it before semi-publicly accusing her of lying.

He said he has forgiven Ingrid (well that's big of him) for... her poor sentence construction? However he did not chide either person there for calling her a liar as far as I saw.

I am beginning to wonder if there can ever be a resolution to this without a major epiphany on Chris's part. And this makes me very sad.

November 7, 2010

For the Christian: “I Will Never Leave You Nor Forsake You” (Sola Sisters)

Our friends over at Sola Sisters have some very comforting words for the believer:


Thank you for this wonderful reminder, ladies.

November 1, 2010

Fear of Controversy

Frank Rue has posted on the Fear of Controversy over at his blog. I just started skimming it but it looks excellent and ties in very nicely with James Sundquist's rebuke of Rick Warren, John Piper, et al which I posted earlier. Here is a tidbit:
In the examples of opposing error, left on record for our imitation, we perceive nothing of that frigid spirit of indifference which smiles on the corruptors of the word of God, and shuns to call heresy by its proper name. With what holy indignation do the Apostles denounce the subtle machinations of the enemies of the gospel! In vain shall we look among those faithful servants of the Lord for any thing to justify that trembling reserve which fears to say decidedly that truth is truth, or that error is error. In what style indeed should perversions of the truth of God be censured? Ought they to be treated as mere matters of opinion on which we may innocently and safely differ? Or ought they to be met in a tone of solemn, strong, and decided disapprobation?
(Excerpt from Exposition of the Epistle to the Romans: with remarks on the commentaries of Dr. MacKnight, Professor Moses Stuart, and Professor Tholuck, Volume 3 by Robert Haldane, Published by EDINBURGH WILLIAM WHYTE & CO, 1842.)