July 31, 2010

Ergun Caner stiill hating on the 'haters' in early May of 2010

James White was given some audio from a seminar Ergun Caner gave in early May of this year and played it on the most recent Dividing Line.


It is utterly shameful to see what is going on here, both in Caner's behavior but especially in the behavior of his peers like Norman Geisler, Tim Guthrie, etc. They are doing him no good service when they continue to enable him in this pattern of lying in the name of Christ, and joining him in attacking those who would ask that the truth be upheld. So how does that camel taste, Dr Geisler, and Mr Guthrie? You seem to be relishing the flavor.

For those of you who are looking for the original Ergun Caner "apology" from February of this year, the only place that still has it is SBC Today. And who knows how long that will last once Ergun finds out it's still up. (He removed it from his own site)


http://sbctoday.com/2010/02/25/statement-from-dr-ergun-caner/


.

July 27, 2010

Mormon visit 2

Ho boy... well, there was one really weird moment, but maybe this is becoming standard operating procedure, kind of like the sales techniques they use for door to door salesmen trying to force a close with an affirmative answer.

Last night it was one of the same guys and one new guy.

Toward the end he claimed that the Bible and the other books of theirs were internally consistent. I was just going to say "what about that verse that says "rid yourself of all ungodliness and only THEN will the grace of Christ be sufficient for you" (Moroni 10:32) and he interrupted me and got all spooky and said he knows the Holy Spirit is here...and the spirit cannot be here when lies are being spoken.

(I'm thinking YES he can be, and he will rebuke them and protect and warn his believers against them!)

Galatians 1: 6-9 (ESV) I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

He said "that feeling you feel right now is the spirit and if you pray you will feel it again"

I just shut my mouth and looked blank, looked at Jason (who had the same doubtful expression) trying not to be rude, because I wasn't feeling anything. But then I started to feel something... OH yeah, it was resentment, indignation, and that sinking feeling in the pit of your stomach when someone does something incredibly socially awkward or untoward and you honestly don't know how to respond. There was a long uncomfortable silence. I just couldn't believe what I had heard from this guy. It was very manipulative but I don't think it was done consciously to manipulate. This guy is sold out to this whole thing. I fear for him. He is unconsciously picking up on the same social engineering type - crowd manipulation techniques used by all the best TBN false prophets, using them, finding they work, and giving credit to his diety.

2 Cor 4:2-6(ESV) "But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

The other guys we've seen have been much more laid back, less intense... could go either way. This is where my cynical brain says that's why they put them with him, because they need to learn to walk in the authority of that spirit that is working through these LDS doctrines of demons.

Husband was not as forceful as *I* think he should be. Eventually he'll get around to it but...He set up another appointment and ARGH I just cannot keep doing this. It drives me batty to see these guys keep deliberately missing the point, and us being so circumspect in how he says things that the point is already very easily lost.

I seriously felt much like I have in charismaniac churches when they try to get me to just 'let the spirit' flow and speak in tongues and whatnot. Forced, contrived, manipulated. The more I think about it the angrier I get that that guy thinks we are so malleable as to fall for the power of suggestion. But then, most people are. Look at the money TBN rakes in from the gullible masses.

2 Timothy 3:1-9 (ESV) "But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith. But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men."

Also, using God's analogy for idolatry being spiritual adultery, it felt like it feels when someone you are friendly with at work or something suddenly decides to come on to you... and then you realize he has been taking your friendliness as far more than friendliness. You partially blame yourself. I'm not saying this guy did anything like that, but on the spiritual level that's how it feels. I am blunt on the page, but I honestly don't like to have to be blunt and rude in real life, and especially not to people who are not close enough to me to understand what I mean, where there is a strong relationship to undergird such speech. It bothers me and I try not to do it unless I have to even in those cases. So to actually pull out that 'talent' and have to use it is much like having to use violence on someone to stop an attack. Especially in today's society, you have to be awfully sure your self defense is warranted. I guess since I'm just using words I shouldn't be so worried about it, but... live and learn.

I really resent someone trying to tell me what I'm thinking/feeling when they have absolutely NO idea and I haven't said. I'm sure I've done the same to people in the past. This guy was majorly projecting something he imagined up in his head. BUT I can imagine someone who isn't familiar with how cults manipulate people could fall for this tactic. They would have responded to his taking CONTROL of the conversation so forcefully and authoritatively with some sort of sensation of surprise/discomfort/butterflies or any combination thereof. Then he explains that sensation as being something from the Holy Spirit and you're like Oh yeah, really? Maybe it only works if you're normally unaware of your own emotional and related physiological responses.

Matthew 20:25-28 "But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

You don't expect people to do stuff like that. But at our house we aren't really blindsided by TOO much, at least not to the point where it actually seems convincing for a time. When people step outside the "polite social norm" cookie cutter, it doesn't mean they have received some supernatural spiritual authority. So by doing this, they put you off balance emotionally, which stirs up a feeling. They manipulate your emotions and then "explain" what is happening, to support their position.

He asked Jason if he would like to read this book that's written by one of their apostles and supposed to answer a lot of questions why the LDS scriptures SEEM to contradict the Bible. (A Marvelous Work And A Wonder by LeGrand Richards) Jason agreed, as long as this guy would take Bondage of the Will and read it.

I seriously think we should call these guys too and say that at least *I* don't want to meet with them again. I think we should say that it is because he told us a baldface lie, he told me I was feeling something, that he felt the Holy Spirit was present, and neither was true. And I wholeheartedly agree the Holy Spirit does not speak lies. Therefore the spirit speaking through him was not the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost. (whichever term they want to use, it was not Holy anything). I suppose Jason will have to meet up with them to exchange books back, not that we need ours back... but...

Another thing that they keep saying is God does not set us up to fail. However, what about the command not to eat of the fruit in the garden? They seem to imply the fall was something good which man had to do to have kids and have joy. Because apparently the garden wasn't good enough, because we weren't able to 'progress.'

He wanted them, even commanded them, to multiply, and yet they coudn't unless they fell. Which means that they were commanded to do something they could not do.

So in essence it sure sounds like God set them up to fail. And apparently sometimes we have to DISOBEY in order to do what God wants us to? This makes NO SENSE and is highly irrational. This is classic postmodernism, which he rejected unequivocally



I'm just exasperated. I'm wondering if they don't seem to take any sympathy or niceness on our behalf to be them gaining a foothold in our minds. It makes me angry to think that being nice suggests to someone that I'm giving in to them. Maybe that's why I am so bristly all the time?

1 Peter 5:8 (ESV)
Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

July 21, 2010

Why is Piper's Old Earth and mysticism news NOW?

I just found an email I sent out to three friends (Chris Rosebrough, Ingrid Schlueter, and Ken Silva) on May 1, 11 days after Desiring God released their Ask Pastor John in which the questionable content occurred. I had heard it live when they did the show at the very end of March, and was waiting for them to release the rest of it because I had heard quite a few things in it that made my alarm bells ring.

I'm not surprised if people tuned me out, because they were tired of John Piper / Rick Warren that went on for the entire month of April and they were tired of me ranting about it. I specifically remember pointing out some of the previous audio/video of him answering the question of old earth, and people being offended that I was looking for this stuff. But now I guess it's fair game... well, whatever! I guess I shouldn't say that... perhaps the people who didn't like me bringing it up then are still defending him on it. I don't know.

I mean, besides that, I ruined my credibility by "picking" a fight with Frank Turk and Phil Johnson (you know, those two are NEVER wrong!) But all these things are connected, the "old earth", the "prophetic word" the "spiritual disciplines" nonsense. The Rick Warren thing did not happen in a vacuum.

I had just noticed it was up and listened to it shortly before May 1, 2010, and wrote out my thoughts, so it isn't particularly well constructed. But here it is... read from bottom up.

Begin forwarded message:
From: Paula _____
Date: May 1, 2010 6:32:13 PM CDT
To: Paula _____
Cc: Chris@extremetheology.com, Ken S , Ingrid Schlueter
Subject: Re2: Full Length version of Ask Pastor John 8

Oh, and him saying that Intellectualism (I think he means intellectual pride) is the problem these days, not emotionalism (anti intellectualism?)


Paula


On May 1, 2010, at 6:26 PM, Paula _____ wrote:

I think it was his warnings in the beginning about loving theology or defending God, or writing about God more than you love God, etc.

This is the kind of talk that will feed right into the emergent/seeker arguments. I see what he's saying, but...

Then it's the Beth Moore question, where he focuses only on the idea that she is a woman teacher, rather than her atrocious doctrine, pietism, and mysticism. He calls Elisabeth Eliot the Beth Moore of his day.

Then he spends time talking about miraculous spiritual gifts. It went something like this:

He feels they are more appropriate for small groups and one on one relating rather than the church service. He wants them to flourish in these gifts and to take the time to ask people "did you bring anything to us from the Lord that you think we need to hear today?" he says "you can use whatever language you want. You can say "have you got a word of knowledge for us?" "Got a word of prophecy?" and if you're scared of that kind of language you can say "has God impressed upon you in some way something that you think somebody in this room, or all of us, need to hear, from your walk with God"

"and just open yourself up to that because that just might penetrate to the very core of somebody, or healing. or..."

Paula

On May 1, 2010, at 2:55 PM, Paula ____ wrote:

I am relistening now while I go run errands, I keep thinking I heard something else suspicious in this that they didn't include in the shorter clip but I can't remember precisely. But here you go for your listening pleasure.

http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/2363_fulllength_footage_of_ask_pastor_john_live/

There is a facebook thread on Wretched's page, with Todd Friel's great post, wherein a bunch of us are being called dividers. Very disheartening.

Paula
BOTTOM OF EMAIL

The wretched facebook thread mentioned is here:



Here is another email I sent to Bob DeWaay. It includes most of what is above (arranged more logically) and a quote about John Piper's vision for Bethlehem Baptist, which sounded an awful lot like so many lame seeker sensitive vision casting sermons I've suffered through.

Bob did read and reply as he usually does, so thankful for pastor Bob's work!

From: Paula Coyle [mailto:__________]
Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2010 6:45 PM
To: Bob DeWaay
Subject: John Piper full Q&A from Rick Warren announcement

I am relistening now while I go run errands, I keep thinking I heard something else suspicious in this that they didn't include in the shorter clip but I can't remember precisely. But here you go for your listening pleasure. This seems to start right after the Rick Warren question, as the question does not occur in this video.


There is a facebook thread on Wretched's page, with Todd Friel's great post, wherein a bunch of us are being called dividers.


Very disheartening. Your daughter showed up and this guy told her not to listen to me (I was recommending YOUR articles, and so was she of course!)

anyway here are some of my observations from Piper's full Q&A.


I think it was his warnings in the beginning about loving theology or defending God, or writing about God more than you love God, etc.

This is the kind of talk that will feed right into the emergent/seeker arguments. I see what he's saying, but... it raised my radar. It sounded too... confusing and emergent leaning. I couldn't find much in it that an emergent or lukewarm Purpose Driven pastor could take issue with.


Then it's the Beth Moore question, where a guy asks "I am a guy. Can I listen to Beth Moore?" Piper then focuses only on the idea that she is a woman teacher, rather than her atrocious doctrine, pietism, and mysticism. He has talked to Moore himself I think he said. He calls Elisabeth Eliot the Beth Moore of his day and says it's ok to listen to her if you don't start becoming dependent on her for spiritual leadership.

Then he spends time talking about miraculous spiritual gifts. It went something like this:

He feels they are more appropriate for small groups and one on one relating rather than the church service, although some churches do use them in the service too, in an orderly fashion allowing people to testify with elders there to make sure what they are saying is Scriptural, but Bethlehem has never done it that way (in the church service).


He wants them to flourish in these gifts and to take the time to ask people "did you bring anything to us from the Lord that you think we need to hear today?" he says "you can use whatever language you want. You can say "have you got a word of knowledge for us?" "Got a word of prophecy?" and if you're scared of that kind of language you can say "has God impressed upon you in some way something that you think somebody in this room, or all of us, need to hear, from your walk with God"

"and just open yourself up to that because that just might penetrate to the very core of somebody, or healing. or..."

He also was asked what he hopes for Bethlehem during his sabbatical "what are the top 2 or 3 ways you hope the church will grow while you are away on sabbatical"


He talked about really wanting God to do something big and unusual and explosive with Bethlehem.


"I'm not thinking of growth first, I'm thinking of explosive experience of the fresh work of God. Like a Revival isn't usually called growth. Growth is incremental, revival is sudden. and so my longing is that God just show up. Just show up. In unusual awakening of reviving power. I don't know what form it might take, so that's what... But I'm totally there with the question because I believe in growth, I believe the steady-state work of the ministry. I think a big piece of it is everbody discerning whether JOhn Piper has positioned himself in their heart as a faithful minister of the gospel to them or as an icon of whatever inappropriate kind. So let the church be cleansed and purified in my absence that , well ok it was nice to have John for these reasons but God is God and the Spirit is the Spirit and the Gospel is the Gospel, and there are other people that can communicate that to us, so that just like I'm testing my heart to discern whether I am addicted to or idolizing aspects of public life, I would like the church to grow in their mature freedom from an excessive dependence upon anything about me that's not Gospel, that's not humble, that's not God-ward, um, that's one thing.


2nd I hope they would grow in confidence in the sovereign goodness of God, that they would grow in faith, that God Gideon-like, gets victories when it looks like we're in a time when humanly speaking we wouldn't.... more faith in God, less faith John...


3rd I want the staff to feel a sense of confident bold ownership of decisions that have to be made. And don't call me up. Don't email me, don't call me up. You need to hire a staff person, you need to make a decision about sunday morning structure, need to start a new service, just do what the collective wisdom of the elders says do, and if you feel like my input is necessary, if you haven't got it after 30 years, another email's not gonna help. Unless you're looking for a kind of control or constraint, and I'm walking away from that kind of control...."



I dunno. This is concerning. He seems very wishy washy and unclear in some of the things he says, as if he is completely unaware of what is going on in evangelicalism.


I don't trust the elders of Bethlehem myself. :-\

Paula

July 20, 2010

Talking with LDS missionaries update

an excellent EXCELLENT overview of mormonism with James White
(sorry, poor audio, but worth listening anyway)

And I'm sure this will ruin my credibility with all LDS who may happen across this, but oh well! I find Shawn McCraney hilarious and refreshing.
BEST Christian/Mormon Debate EVER! 1 of 2
BEST Christian/Mormon Debate EVER! 2 of 2

(He appears to be dispensational I guess. Perhaps "mid acts" dispensational, saying Paul didn't preach repentance to the Gentiles. That never made sense to me. Acts 17:30-31)

So...How'd the discussion go? Confusing. We talked to two mormon missionaries for 5 hours (6 if you count my speaking to them 5 days prior). We spent an hour agreeing on Biblical terminology so that we could understand each other. They would explain the gospel (and include works as necessary for salvation -e.g. saved by grace AND works) and then we would explain it and change the analogy they were using to exclude works and show that even our good works condemn us. But they didn't seem to see how the two differed and always agreed when we explained as clearly as we could how spending and eternity with "heavenly father" is only through Christ's merit not our own.

One used an analogy of a toll highway for life. You keep putting in your change into the toll booth and at the end (judgement) you find out you are out of money, Jesus steps in and pays the difference for you. I said well, ok, but the Biblical gospel would be more like you throwing money in the toll booth all through life, you get to the end and the judge says not only do you have no more money, the money you've been using is all counterfeit so not only are you in trouble for having no money, you've been running through the toll booths without paying AND you're on the hook for passing counterfeit money! THEN Jesus says "no, his bill is on me."

But again, I don't think they really realize the depth of their own depravity, and until they do (which will probably require a lot of falling flat on their faces to see, and I'm sure life will offer them a lot of that once they have the stresses of a family too!) this won't make sense. But the seeds were planted. We quoted a lot of scripture to them, and told the gospel without using fancy analogies, just told it straight, but they seemed to agree with every gospel presentation we could make.

Either they are changing how they get young people in the door these days, or they are becoming more ecumenical (possible). Or they are lying in order to bait and switch people. Hard to know if the young bucks are actually totally cognizant of lying or whether they've been sold a bill of goods too. I've been listening to the LDS channel and it's painfully obvious they require works to be saved. Over and over again we hear it, it's not just some misstatement or poorly chosen phrase.

AT BEST -- My guess is as they get more and more emotionally and socially connected to the church, then they will start putting more and more requirements on them and eventually they will find themselves unable to move. Kind of like the Lilliputians from Gulliver's travels. (oddly enough, masonic references there and in the secret temple rituals of Mormonism).

They definitely seem to be saying something similar to Christianity, or hiding the works requirement a little better... trying to make works out to be the thing Christ was talking about when he said you have to give up everything for him... or something twisted like that.

They didn't give us any brochures. We had gone to the library and got a 'triple' of their scriptures. We don't happen to have a KJV on hand other than the NKJV, but at least it gets us the references. Although Jason always has his Iphone handy with about 6 different translations which are easily searchable.

I felt so bad one of them confessed that he was clinically depressed and struggled with that. His girlfriend dumped him etc. But that he prayed according to James 1:5 and he was convinced God gave him a feeling of peace when he needed it most, like God reached down and gave him a hug, so he "knows" it's true because he had a 'feeling.' Both of them of course testified that God gave them feelings and that they had 'coincidental' (not coincidence to them) answers to prayer.

Stuff like that. Well how can you argue with that? That's why we don't testify of our own private experiences but we should testify of what Christ has objectively done for our salvation. Jason and I mostly refused to talk about our feelings as any valid criteria for judging the truth.

The other one mentioned going to a Catholic church and praying and asking 'heavenly father' whether we should be praying to mary and all the saints, and nope didn't get the 'feeling.' Also tried a Lutheran church since his friend went to one, and nope, it wasn't there too. They think all churches are the same if they have the same denomination name. I may pursue that line of reasoning. Much of evangelicalism these days sounds not much different than Mormonism. They seem to be meeting in the middle. You have to prove your devotion to God by "doing stuff." they just have different "stuff."

They mentioned being a little more able to examine things, but that some people still frown on that. That was the other guy who has said he is more open to examining the anti mormon stuff. I am hoping to direct him to James White, but it's really hard for them to get past the LDS idea that Lucifer was the one who came up with the idea of the bondage of the will.

I expressed my sympathy with a genuine tear in my eye for the depression, which I have also struggled with and how sad it makes me feel to think of another person going through that. It is a horrible thing. They both thanked me for that. (having a hysterectomy has fixed it because now I no longer have to take pain killers that I took for about 7 years, and over 2 years now I have been able to come out of that whole pain killer/rebound headache cycle.)

Of the two, the 'depression' one will probably be broken first, and I just pray that what we said will come back to mind then. We are going to meet with them again on Friday evening. I find this whole thing exhausting. My brain is still tired two days later. sigh. :-)

I am enjoying listening to James White's stuff on Mormonism. I am honestly not trying to sound disrespectful, but it's so amazing to me that basically we're sitting here trying to rationally and evenhandedly discuss what amounts to a sex cult built around men's libido. It's really .. well... kind of disgusting when you think too hard about it. I've noticed they have studiously avoided mentioning anything about what us women will be doing. I sure don't want to be doing what an exalted mormon woman is supposed to be doing for eternity. I was never cut out to be a Mormon. What do these precious mothers feel when they realize how impossible it is to be a mom (which entails a zillion and one responsibilities) plus, to be a lover and to supposedly enjoy an active passionate sex life, to raise her family and continue to love them and keep her motives and actions pure? AND then after she's become (as many many women do) disillusioned with motherhood and wifely responsibilities, she thinks "great, I have this to look forward to, and nothing else, for eternity, while my exalted husband goes around from woman to woman making more work for each of us? I don't even get his attention to myself like I do here on earth??"

My heart aches for them, deeply.

One video I found said just leave them with "if I'm wrong, and you're right, then I will spend eternity in the lowest heaven, where Joseph Smith said if we could get a glimpse of it we'd be tempted to commit suicide to get there. AND if I join the LDS church and then decide later it's not for me, I get sent to outer darkness/hell. Why risk it? If you're wrong and I am right, you will spend an eternity in torment for your idolatry."

(5ptSalt) Are Tim Keller & John Piper even Christian? (FIXED LINK)

5Pt Salt's title is provocative, but really makes you think. Just how far away from God's word can you get before people start to wonder? This is compromise that you expect in young naive new Christians, not solid Bible teachers who have been in place for 30 years.

This is just so wrong. Piper is saying it's ok to fudge around on the creation, and you shouldn't define too narrowly who you put into your eldership at church.

(5ptSalt) Are Tim Keller & John Piper even Christian?


Please watch the videos there and read the linked articles.

Put this together with "Rick warren is Biblical" and "orthodox" and "sound" and all the people who were so upset in April that Phil Johnson whined about are looking pretty prescient.

Here is Al Mohler NOT compromising with the world on this, and doing it with excellence.
"Why Does The Universe Look So Old?"

RIGHT ON, Dr Mohler! Breath of fresh air, a blazing flame in the darkness! This is one of those "Is it live or is it memorex?" lectures.

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July 19, 2010

Berean Beacon's youtube channel suspended

Berean Beacon's youtube channel has been suspended. (originally I thought this was Richard Bennett's channel, but the google cache says it is not... wouldn't have learned that without finding the cached version on google HOWEVER Richard Bennett's embedded videos on his own website are also down, many citing "terms of use violation.")


http://www.youtube.com/user/BereanBeacon


Several of his videos exposing Rick Warren are noted to be because of "terms of use violation"



see a list of Rick Warren videos that were pulled for this reason: (click on the link below, then the list of videos are on the left hand side)

http://www.perfectpeaceplan.com/peacemedia.html

Looks like the false teachers have caught their breath and are back to ankle biting: Filing false and frivolous complaints, censoring their critics etc etc. all very Christian behavior don't you think? Did they let Richard Abanes out of his cage again or what? Youtube ought to be ashamed that they cop out so easily. Berean beacon had about 1977 videos up. Do they REALLY think he'd be stupid enough to violate copyright law?

.

July 15, 2010

First Mormon/LDS visit

The other day I had my first witnessing encounter with Mormons. I hadn't overheard anyone talk to a Mormon from Scripture for a long time, so I was unaware of how cleverly they have been taught to use Christian sounding words to mean something different, much like the Emergent church does. But it was a good discussion overall, they enjoyed it and I enjoyed it. I would have enjoyed it more if I thought they were really understanding me. But who knows what seeds were planted.

Of course I have known about the basic differences between Mormonism and Christianity for some time, but brushing up on things, I learned some things about their past that disturbed me. I knew about the violent incidents, but I had never understood the doctrinal reasons they did what they did. Their understanding of blood atonement (not Christ's blood, YOUR blood) was heartbreaking to me. They do not practice these things now, but in the Temple they do still make reference to them in secret oaths where you pledge not to reveal their 'secrets' on pain of disembowelment or throat slitting. I knew I had heard that before, in the secret Masonic rituals.

Other things like polygamy, of course, are things just about everyone knows about. I did not realize Joseph Smith didn't receive that revelation until close to the end of his life, after he had been practicing it for some time secretly. I also was unaware of the Kinderhook plates fraud. I did know about the Book of Mormon having been partially plagiarized from Solomon Spalding.

I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings or say they are violent people (any more than any other human being!) but the question becomes WHY were these doctrines abrogated? Because the next LDS President decided they were bad? Because the US Government said they were bad? What if the next one decides to reinstate them or come up with something worse?

We can brush them aside saying every religion has its phases wherein the adherents display bad behavior. But that is not the question. The question is, were they acting in accord with their authoritative Scriptures and prophets, or against them?

You will point to the Old Testament wherein God commanded the Jews to conquer and kill mercilessly the nations God commanded them to drive out entirely (You'll also find places where they shirked that duty). But you will never find God saying that shedding these people's blood atones for their sins. It never can.

But even aside from all those things, Mormons are bound do "do all they can" and after that the grace of Christ *might* be enough. 2 Nephi 25:23

The Bible tells us
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)


Now on the surface they seemed to agree with that. It is possible they don't understand yet how they've been baited and switched, but unlikely. I seem to recall hearing remarks on one show I was listening to that the younger generation isn't being taught as strictly as previous generations. But I won't assume that, of course.

I talked with these young men (there were three instead of the customary 2) for quite a while outside my door, and they asked if they could come back. So I said I would love to have them talk to my husband. They set up an appointment for 2 on Saturday. Pray for them, and pray for us that we would speak the words they need to hear, words that will bear fruit. They seem not to yet realize the bait and switch game they are playing. They were so young, and such nice young men.

Older ones that I have seen interviewed seem to have shuttered eyes, an undercurrent of quiet desperation, probably because they are not worthy or perfect, as their religion teaches them they must be. They have changed the meaning of 'grace.' It has something we earn, nothing is ever free. Although these young men seemed to deny that they must work for things, their Scriptures say otherwise. They eventually end up with no assurance or peace... and they cannot, because they do not have the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit.