February 27, 2010

Dan Southerland's Transitioning Seminar analyzed by Chris Rosebrough

Chris Rosebrough does an EXCELLENT analysis of Dan Southerland's Transitioning Seminar.



This is a MUST HEAR for those who are concerned about the seeker sensitive or purpose driven takeover of their own church.

I might remind you that in 2007, about 3 years after this seminar was recorded (judging by some current events he mentions in the process of the seminar, which may not be included in Chris's clips here) one of their foremost transitionists Roddy Clyde was arrested for embezzling money (at least $500,000) from his church. Well I guess he had a vision from God!

Worship of Mass Dysfunction is a book written about this whole development.
Regarding the book, this is from a comment on blog post I found:
"kim said...

Please read “Worship of Mass Dysfunction”. This book details the events leading up to and the events following Pastor Roddy Clyde’s embezzlement and subsequent arrest. The book provides a harrowing account of how purpose driven concepts can cause harm. www.wmdthebook.com." (the website is no longer in service)
I have no idea of this book but it sure could be interesting to see how Church Transitions Inc handled all this.
A few things I have noticed (besides what Chris says in this analysis):

12:09 "There are four major movements of God in the world today"

1. Cell church
2. Contemporary Worship movement
3. Seeker church movement
4. Purpose Driven Church

About the Purpose Driven Church movement he says:
"The fourth movement of God in the world today, this is interesting to me, is the one that Billy Graham says is the biggest movement of God in the world today. At Amsterdam 2000 he proclaimed that this movement is the biggest movement of God in the world today. It is the Purpose Driven Church Movement..."

I can find no evidence that BILLY GRAHAM EVER SAID anything like what Dan Southerland is attributing to him having said at Amsterdam 2000. If Billy Graham had said this I would think it would be everywhere reprinted in support of Purpose Driven. Where is it?

BILLY GRAHAM was NOT AT Amsterdam 2000. He was home ill! It was not just a misspeak because he reiterates Billy Graham's age that he would have been in 2000 (Chris left that out of the audio).

In addition Dan southerland's musical training claims do not add up. Says he is classically trained organist but later says can't read music very well (may not be included in the audio clip)? This does NOT seem likely.

It makes it sound like he's exaggerating his classical music affinity/ability/investment to show how much he has 'given up' for the sake of his "God-given" agenda. Almost like people saying "I really enjoy washing dishes and doing house work, so I'm giving up all that for Lent." I would love to see some video of him playing the organ. It just doesn't pass the smell test for me.

Then there is the segment is where Dan describes his 'Shootout At The OK Corral' meeting. I have read the book myself, and remember this part. However every time I actually listen to his voice describing it with such arrogance, condescension, and holier than thou attitude, I am as incensed by his smug self assured assault on the church as if I was hearing it for the first time.

Dan spends plenty of time castigating his opponents for being friendly to him and allowing their kids to play together even while planning to ambush him (planning ahead to make a stand and oppose him). Now, is that not EXACTLY what he is doing in this seminar? Teaching pastors to plan ahead mostly behind closed doors with your inner circle of 'vision sharers' to take over power of the church? The man didn't bother to be Biblical, therefore Dan is allowed to be unbiblical?

In addition he abused Robert's Rules of Order, while saying "If you're gonna have [Robert's Rules of Order] you need to know it, cuz you can use it."


POINT OF PARLIAMENTARY PRIVILEGE: A Point of Privilege may be made when the rights and privileges of a member of PMC have been violated. If the Point is appropriate, the Chair will undertake corrective measures.
Points of Parliamentary Privilege are commonly called for in only two situations. First, when a delegate slanders another or grossly misrepresents his or her position while speaking or if a delegate cannot hear the speaker, has to get a drink, or must otherwise attend to personal business.

Point of Privilege did not apply here. He was opening for discussion at this point , not taking a point of privilege. (and he did not actually allow much discussion, having basically drawn a line in the sand in the course of responding to this deacon.

I have heard the audio, and after this in the story, Dan forces everyone to vote for or against him publicly, not by secret ballot. This sounds like the recent attempt to take away the secret ballot from unions.

Our ex pastor Todd Ertsgaard did something exactly like this, forcing people to vote for or against him by raising of hand, with him in the room, after having humiliated one person for an offhand comment that he disagreed with. You see he never had a problem with jumping in and strongarming people when he found it going a way he disagreed with. So his attempts to tell us that the reason he was uninvolved with how the Executive Committee was mishandling us and stringing us along, lying to us and shutting us out, was because he didn't feel it was his place.

The other thing I wonder is how he knew that the other two pastors would resign in the morning so surely that he could speak FOR them in their absence?

Could it be because he planned ahead to make a power play? Hmmm....

But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Matt 20:25-28

Dan goes on right toward the end explaining how you must shoot these wolves in your church (never mind that he himself is the Alpha Wolf here!),

"Why doesn't it say watch out for the mountain lion in wolves' [sic - sheep's] clothing? Mountain Lions hunt solo. Wolves hunt in packs."

Chris does some excellent analysis here. But I would also point out that Dan and his cronies are again doing exactly what he is castigating here. He is teaching these pastors how to hunt in packs. He and Glen Sartain just finished explaining how you should never handle opposition alone. They have meticulously described throughout this seminar how to assemble your pack and infiltrate the sheep fold. They have described how to prepare for the first sheep to bolt at the smell of false teaching, and how your consequent slaughter of that sheep can then look like you transitioning hostile takeover pastors did not instigate anything. Oh we were just shooting a wolf in sheep's clothing!

IT SHALL NOT BE SO AMONG YOU.

February 26, 2010

Rick Warren plays the Pharisee Card

My friend Daniel over at Better Than Sacrifice has written a great article on Rick Warren's latest tweets:

Rick Warren, CEO of Saddleback Church, yesterday played the Pharisee card. He wrote:

‘It drives Pharisees nuts to watch God keep blessing ministries they ridicule & despise. God’s sovereignty is often humorous.’

What’s the Pharisee card? Good question.

In my quest to become Todd Wilken’s number one fan, please allow me to direct you to his incisive article:

Playing the Pharisee Card
Now, Rick Warren’s proof of the rightness of his position (and that his opponents are wrong) seems to be based on his claim of God’s ‘blessing’. And, as CEO of Saddleback and self-proclaimed disciple of management guru Peter Drucker, he knows how to apply best 21st century management practice to his business. So, it is important for Mr. Warren to be able to quantify this blessing.

read more here

February 24, 2010

Sola Sisters - Judgement Isn't Hate

My friend Christine at Sola Sisters has written a GREAT article summing up in a nutshell what all this 'innovation' is doing to the evangelical church.


Also, an e-book was brought to my attention the other day, called "The New Pharisaism" by one Bill Slabaugh which sounds just like the CRN.info blog, started up to try and silence a grassroots response against apostasy. Well, ok.... whatever.

In it he talks about spiritual bullies and all the tactics that are used by those "Pharisees" trying to warn the church against the very real mysticism and occult practices that are coming into the church. "Ganging up on" people? Bullying people? Coercing people? That is far more likely to happen TO us than by us. In fact, is has, to most of us.

I would point Mr Bill Slabaugh to Todd Wilken's EXCELLENT article "Playing the Pharisee Card."

" In the end, the Pharisee Card amounts to nothing more than name-calling. And, like the Race or Gender Cards are in politics, in the Church, the Pharisee Card is always the sign of a losing hand."

Sermon Review of Rick Warren's "Radical Compassion"

Chris Rosebrough has some great insights on Rick Warren's speech at Ridiculis (Radicalis)


February 12, 2010

Ridiculous Radicalis observations

Today Rick Warren dealt with "dealing with critics" on the last day of his Ridiculous conference

Unfortunately since I had to be at a funeral, I could not listen. I do hope that someone provides me with audio or Saddleback provides us with an online source to listen to this wonderful (ahem) stuff.

Anyhow several people were in the chat room yesterday at that link, questioning what was being said, and of course immediately they played their Pharisee cards. No surprise there.

But today they blocked the IPs of those who dared speak against the protestant Pope Rick (or at least mine). And here I thought they had said something about love and tolerance for those who are 'different' than you.


Please wait, connecting to server...
Please wait, connecting to server...
You have been kicked out of this channel.

Apparently they also had been begging and bribing people to tweet about the conference and spread the word. Don't they think that if people were actually thrilled about the conference they wouldn't need bribing to spread the word?

And several shots of the audience revealed a rather sparse attendance. Rick Warren is Losin' Share!

Some of the questions I raised before being kicked (took all of 30 seconds to 1 minute):

*I remember wondering if Rick will emphasize that the effects of sin are not just for this life.

*That far more important is the fact that until we repent and put our faith in Christ alone, we are dead in sin, by nature children of wrath, and under God's wrath.

*I guess that was not cool

*I also asked a couple people who kept saying we should focus on what unites us rather than what divides, if they ever have worshipped with mormons or why they don't go to a mormon church.

*Never got an answer.

*Approximately the last thing I said was when one of them told us not to throw the baby out with the bathwater and I said "what baby?"

Justin Peters rebuked by Revelation TV for naming names

Justin Peters Wrong To Name Names on Revelation TV

So Justin Peters was told by several people that he could name names when he was interviewed on Revelation TV this past week. But apparently the manager of the station didn't get the memo, because they refused to air the rerun and instead they got on the next day and trashed him but good. So Biblical to trash a brother in Christ don't you think?

(a little sarcasm there)

I exchanged a little email with the station there Live@talkgod.com

read from bottom up:


On Feb 12, 2010, at 11:31 AM, wrote:

I am not calling anyone a liar. I am just telling you that no one told him to name names.

The only person he spoke to was our general manager who was the interviewer and I can assure you that I have know him for many years and he is not a liar. He has presented hundreds of live programmes on our channel.

Have you given any thought to the fact that we are the only Christian Channel that would host such an interview and give Justin Peters an opportunity to talk about word faith movement? We were not holding him back on anything he wanted to say except naming names. When he appeared a while back for a debate we had a surge of emails and phone calls criticizing him and us for having him on but we were not swayed by this and welcomed him back for another interview.

You can continue to email but this is the last correspondence from us and I can see this going on and on and getting nowhere.

Unlike a tiny minority of his followers, he seems to be a very nice person and our interviewer spoke highly of him.
-----Original Message-----
From: Paula
Sent: 12 February 2010 15:28
To: live@talkgod.comlive@talkgod.com
Subject: Re: Justin Peters

So you're calling him a liar too. Brilliant.

You had better find out who told him to name names and give that person a run down on air too.

Paula

On Feb 12, 2010, at 9:00 AM, live@talkgod.com wrote:

I am very sorry that you are upset but he was not told to name names! Who told you he was told to name names - if it was Justin Peters then I would find that most strange that he told you that..

We also refused to play some of his video clips which named names.

-----Original Message-----
From: Paula
Sent: 12 February 2010 14:45
To: live@talkgod.com
Subject: Justin Peters

He was TOLD to name names, and you are now crucifying him in front of everyone for doing what you said he could do. Shameful. It is in fact our duty as Christians to warn believers against error and away from charlatans who will hurt them, JUST AS YOU THINK YOU DID ON YOUR R MORNINGS SHOW. So you are, in addition to lying, you are hypocritical in that you are doing exactly what you are judging him for having done.

Liars will have their part in the lake of fire, or do you not read your Scriptures? Repent of your false teaching which is ruining millions of God's naive sheep, and turn to Christ.

Paula in USA

February 2, 2010

Christians and Alternative Medicine

I have a sister that is a licensed RN and has a good head on her shoulders, is supposed to be a Christian, but now has added to her career a practice in "Wellness" and alternative healing that is patently unscientific, called "Field Control Therapy" - involving what seems like a form of bioresonance, muscle testing, energy field detection/manipulation, and water memory.

Because of this development in my family over the last few years, it has come to my attention that this kind of thing is becoming very popular. There are SO many alternatives however and some of them are actually legitimate and not spiritually dangerous or at least innocuous. However they tend to be mixed up with a lot of eastern Spirituality and mysticism, probably because health was so tied in to spirituality for the eastern cultures. And I'm not saying they are wrong about that (body mind and spirit are connected in many ways). But if you use their unbiblical Spirituality to fix your body and mind, you are in effect worshipping a false god and exposing yourself, possibly, to demonic oppression and influence.

So Christians should be exercising GREAT caution when participating in any medical practice that seems new. There are always new forms and procedures being dreamed up, so just because it's not in the list does not mean it's OK. You have to look at the underlying methodology.

I heard recently about a mother who recently delivered a baby, and two women came into her room and just started practicing this energy healing on her. She was very uncomfortable with that, even though she was not familiar with this sort of practice. But apparently the medical community is getting on board too, because these ladies were walking around the hospital practicing their thing on people.

Here are a list of links of sorts of healing techniques that are available. I have not read them all, but Ankerberg is on the whole a fairly good place to start. As always, compare everything to Scripture.

Holistic Medicine - pt 1 - An Overview
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA0706W3.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 2 - Acupuncture / Acupressure
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA0806W3.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 3 - Altered States of Consciousness
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA0906W3.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 4 Anthroposophical Medicine
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA1006W3.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 5 - Attitudinal Healing
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA1106W3.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 6 - Autogenic Training
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA1206W2.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 7 - Ayurvedic Medicine
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA0107W2.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 8 - Bioenergetics & Reichian Therapy
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA0207W2.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 9 - Biofeedback
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA0307W2.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 10 - Bodywork Methods
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA0407W2.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 11 - Breath Awareness
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA0507W2.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 12 - Medical Channeling
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA0607W2.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 13 - Chiropractic
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA0707W2.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 14 - Chromotherapy / Color Therapy
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA0807W2.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 15 - Crystal Healing / Crystal Work
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA0907W2.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 16 - Dowsing
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA1007W2.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 17 - Dreamwork
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA1107W2.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 18 - Edgar Cayce Healing Methods
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA1207W2.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 19 - Herbal Medicine
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA0108W2.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 20 - Homeopathy
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA0208W2.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 21 - Hypnosis and Hypnotic Regression
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA0308W2.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 22 - New Age Intuition
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA0408W2.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 23 - Iridology
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA0508W2.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 24 - Kirlian Photography
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA0608W2.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 25 - Martial Arts
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA0708W1.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 26 - New Age Meditation
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA0808W1.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 27 - Muscle Testing
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA0908W1.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 28 - Naturopathy
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA1008W1.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 29 - Osteopathy
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA1108W1.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 30 - Polarity Therapy
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA1208W1.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 31 - Psychic Anatomies
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA0109W1.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 32 - Psychic Diagnosis, Psychic Healing, and Psychic Surgery
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA0209W1.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 33 - (Medical) Psychmetry (Radionics)
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA0309W1.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 34 - Psychosynthesis
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA0409W1.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 35 - Reiki
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA0809W1.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 36 - Shamanistic Medicine
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA0909W1.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 37 - Audio-Visual Therapy
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA1009W1.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 38 - Therapeutic Touch
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA1109W1.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 39 - Applied Kinesiology
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA1209W1.htm

Holistic Medicine - pt 40 - New Age Visualization
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA0110W1.htm