September 28, 2008

Bob Wiebe, wild man...

Yet more hissing and spitting from the cockroaches disturbed by the light of truth being shined on the C&MA. Bob Wiebe threatens Ishmael's place as 'wild man' from Genesis 16:12

From:
bob.rachr@mts.net
Sent:
September 27, 2008 5:46:43 PM
To:  Mike Frankson (john_3_1_6@hotmail.com)
Mike

I am about to launch a civil law suite against your outrageous accusations. i have asked you before to take me off your mailing list, and now I am telling you that if I ever receive another message of any kind from you or your cronies, I will take whatever action is needed to stop you from these kinds of things. You amaze me at your your ability to defame people, and I suggest you find another line of work that will not get you into the difficulty this one just might, so again, remove me from your mailing list immediately. To have an e-mail address with john-3-1-6 in it is a disgrace to the Bible.

Bob Wiebe

*********
and also to James Sundquist who tried to warn the Canadian C&MA:

From: "Bob Wiebe"
Date: May 5, 2005 5:02:16 PM EDT
To: "'RockSalt'"
Subject: RE: TO CMA Western Staff re Canada's Stoney Creek Alliance Church ousting of 65 for opposing Purpose Driven Church and refusing to sign Rick Warren Covenants joins ranks of U.S. Churches

This is without doubt one of the most damming, judgmental, truth less, pieces of writing I have read in my by now many years of life and ministry. You sir, are throwing the baby out with the bath water, and I have no idea why you would even take the time to write this drivel. Please remove me from your mailing list, or I will put your e-mail address on my block senders list. It is beyond me what you are attempting to do, other than black list the name of a pastor, who while not perfect is never the less one of God’s gifts to the Church.

Bob Wiebe

September 27, 2008

C&MA pastors retaliating against accusations

Funny how no one cares about James who has also investigated this, and they never trot out the 'two sides to every story' argument when they are booting people for resisting false teaching and domineering behavior from their beloved fuhrers.

To: john_3_1_6@hotmail.com
CC: gatewaycommunitychurch@gmail.com; hallelujahmc@yahoo.com; oasiscommunitychurch@msn.com; pastor@southjordancommunitychurch.com; pcoffice@emerytelcom.net; vac@milfordvac.org; vmeltzer@xmission.com
Subject: Re: C&MA Purpose-Driven Pirates Steal Another Church Property and Loot Bank Account & UPDATE: Vietnamese Boat People Church Files Criminal Fraud Charges Against C&MA in Los Angeles County
From: pastor_henry@comcast.net
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 20:06:00 -0600

Do not send me another email with your divisive propaganda! Shame on you! there is always two sides of the story and I have investigated this. You are spreading lies of what really is going on.

May the Lord forgive you!
Pastor Henry

From: "Mike&Nancy"
Date: September 25, 2008 8:00:11 PM EDT
To: "James Sundquist"
Subject: FW: C&MA Purpose-Driven Pirates Steal Another Church Property and Loot Bank Account & UPDATE: Vietnamese Boat People Church Files Criminal Fraud Charges Against C&MA in Los Angeles County


________________________________

From: jmjanney@peoplepc.com
To: john_3_1_6@hotmail.com
Subject: RE: C&MA Purpose-Driven Pirates Steal Another Church Property and
Loot Bank Account & UPDATE: Vietnamese Boat People Church Files Criminal
Fraud Charges Against C&MA in Los Angeles County
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 19:48:43 -0400



Dear Mike,

I am making a legal request that you immediately remove my name from
your mailing list, with no further contact!

Jmjanney@peoplepc.com

September 25, 2008

Christian & Missionary Alliance Leader Named in Fraud & Extortion Scheme

[note: I do have the supporting documentation for the Bob Iddings situation, am working to get that up soon]

UPDATE on C&MA abuse of power also posted here:

http://laiglesforum.com/2008/09/23/chrsitian-and-missionary-alliance-still-in-the-church-snatching-business/

and here:
http://postedat.wordpress.com/2008/09/24/the-realy-bad-alliance-churches/

September 25, 2008

Christian & Missionary Alliance Leader Named in Fraud & Extortion Scheme

District Superintendent Wayne Spriggs Seizes Reedsville Bank Account and Church Property

On the heels of the C&MA Headquarters being sued for stealing $18,000 bank account and $650,000 church property of a Chinese church in Colorado Springs, and more recently a Vietnamese Boat People Church, in Long Beach California, the Eastern Pennsylvania District of the C&MA as now hijacked another church. And just like the national bank crisis is about real estate, this case of greed is about real estate. But unlike the national bank crisis, the leaders of the Wall Street giants are not blaming it on the investor, while the C&MA is blaming it on the pastor and members of this local church who invested in it. Their punishment? Steal their property! And unlike the current national bank crisis collapse and corruption with Fanny Mae, Freddie Mack, and Leeman Brothers, the C&MA loots church bank accounts in the name of Jesus. This time in Reedsville, Pennsylvania, spearheaded by Wayne Spriggs, District Director, who has a history of threatening people.

The Summary Letter by former C&MA Credentialed Pastor Bob Iddings, Reedsville Christian & MIssionary Alliance Church, Reedsville, Pennsylvania:

"SHOUT IT FROM THE ROOF TOP"

“But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman’s hand.” (Eze 33:6 AV)

The Christian and Missionary Alliance has seized another church, its parsonage and its bank account, this time by the hands of Wayne Spriggs, District Superintendent of the Eastern Pennsylvania District of the Christian and Missionary Alliance and its District Executive Committee.

A disgruntled adherent from our church who was displeased when she did not get her way, called our District Superintendent, Wayne Spriggs, and insisted on a congregational meeting in an attempt to have me removed from the church and “to ruin me”. Although a congregational meeting was not held, what was to follow was a nightmare for our church adherents and myself.

It was a known fact by our District Superintendent that another church in our community who was currently renting space was interested in our church property, which we feel was at the root of what was to ensue, as Wayne Spriggs is attempting to close many of our small churches to acquire money to fund start up of new mega/emergent churches which he believes is the direction our churches should be going. He is opposed to the small churches and feels that they lack the ability and resources to evangelize.

Wayne Spriggs knowing that I am a man who stands for what he believes, forced my hand by demanding certain requirements to be met by myself and my church people or face closure of the church. He knew we would not agree to his terms, thus forcing my resignation. However, he did not allow us the time we asked for to prepare for closure, but came to our church one Sunday evening with the news the church would be closed, and the next day came and confiscated all financial records and immediately went to the bank and withdrew all the churches funds. Although the church was slated to close in two weeks, there was never another service held at the church and the church adherents were not notified, only to come to the church the following Sunday to find a sign on the door that there would be no services for the next two weeks.

During this time, Wayne made accusations of misconduct on my part to have DEXCOM issue a decree that I was forbidden to attend prayer conference scheduled during the same week he closed the church. This was done in an attempt to keep other churches and pastors from knowing what had happened. During the months that followed, Wayne refused to allow me to attend meetings held by DECOM and LO&CC concerning my situation and when I was asked to meetings with a few of his hand chosen representatives, I was not permitted to bring anyone with me as a witness and I was denied written copies of minutes of those meetings. In addition, when I was cleared of all charges, Wayne immediately had LO&CC suspend my license for failure to follow through with his demands without following proper procedures set forth by the constitution of the C&MA. Although I had challenged him on several occasions concerning his mishandling of the proper procedures to be followed, he chose to disregard my concerns and proceeded forward with his erroneous handling of the situation. I later appealed this to our National Office who found that proper procedures were not followed and asked that he reinstate my license, which he refused to do until I wrote a letter resigning my credentials with the C&MA.

During this entire ordeal, our family was going through a crisis with our daughter who was facing surgery the day after we were told the church would close for possible iliac cancer. Wayne showed no compassion for our situation, nor did he or anyone from the district ever inquire about my daughter’s condition or situation. His only concern was that we be out of the parsonage by May 31st, of which he reminded us on several occasions. He lacked any concern for the fact that we had no job, no income and limited time to find housing due to our family crisis.

Our church was financed through a local mortgage company and we have been totally debt free for at least 12 years. To my knowledge we never had any loans from the C&MA's Alliance Development Fund...so they would not even have grounds for foreclosure or lien. But it really wasn't even our property or even our money, these were the monies given by our people to God as tithes and offerings. What they (the C&MA) have taken is God's, not man's. I know we were small, but the spiritual growth in the last few years has been great. God called me here to combat those who were trying to control and corrupt His church and be a witness to this community and even as Philip (Acts 8:26) was called to go into the desert to witness to one man.

The Christian and Missionary Alliance is no longer true to the scriptural principles on which it was founded. They are embracing the emergent church movement and will not hesitate to enforce their reversionary clauses and liquidate any churches assets or confiscate funds in order to move forward with their new agenda and fund these new churches. Let this serve as a warning, your church could be next!!! Robert Iddings, former Christian & Missionary Alliance pastor

This hostile takeover by the C&MA is nothing new, but in fact, follows a well published pattern of devouring their own brothers in Christ. Here are two recent pending cases: The C&MA's seizure of the C&MA Chinese church story entitled: "Suing for Reconciliation" is available in Christianity Today Magazine 
and the Colorado Springs Gazette: 
"Congregation Suing District after its Home is Sold" 
Also read the comments on that article. Here is one of oft recommend posts by Rocksalt [see other posts too]:

"My highest commendation to Gazette Reporter Marc Barna..his story was NO SPIN...very balanced! I wrote three documentaries on the C&MA. The truth about what the C&MA did is even more sinister and evil than the article reflects. The account by the Chinese members is correct. A public relations nightmare for the C&MA either way the court case goes. One clarification re The "Reversion Clause" is that "accredited", though it makes it much easier to hijack the church then when it is merely "affiliated", it is not license, due process, and the absence of fraud and arbitrariness must prevail in exercising the reversion clause...even the C&MA Constitution states this. For a complete report on the C&MA's seizure of the Chinese church and the more recent seizure of another ethnic church and its even larger bank account by the C&MA which was a Vietnamese Boat People church in Long Beach, California, and the investigation of C&MA VIce President John Soper, contact rock.salt@verizon.net"

The Vietnamese hostile takeover story will be in an upcoming issue of District Weekly in Long Beach, California. Update: On September 22, 2008, Daniel Nguyen, former members of the Vietnamese "Boat People" Christian and Missionary Alliance Church, Long Beach, California filed criminal fraud charges against the Christian & Missionary Alliance in Long Beach, California. For independent verification and a copy of the filing, contact:

Sr. Inv. Randal McNary
L.A. County District Attorney
201 N. Figueroa Street
Ste 1500
Los Angeles, CA 90012
213-580-8733 (o)
213-202-5954 (f)
213-379-2044 (c)
rmcnary@da.lacounty.gov

Full report of Christian & Missionary Alliance denomination hijacking of Reedsville Christian and Missionary Alliance Church is available at:
http://www.purposedrivel.com/2008/09/c-seizing-churchesassets-of-faithful.html

&
http://laiglesforum.com/2008/09/23/chrsitian-and-missionary-alliance-still-in-the-church-snatching-business/

Once again, the Christian and Missionary Alliance has trashed the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution Freedom of Religion by snatching and poaching church properties and bank accounts and rendering victims into villains and villains into heroes.

C&MA Pastors are already retaliating from this news release, virtually none showed charity or compassion for the victim and most attack the messenger, one even accused the messenger of “Mail Fraud” and “Invasion of Privacy” from C&MA Pastor Jim Grumbine. Invasion of Privacy? What hypocrites! How about the invasion of the privacy of the Vietnamese and Chinese church bank accounts and churches? Here is a link to the retaliation responses from C&MA pastors from Jim Grumbine and other recent church and bank hijackings:

RESPONSE TO CHARGES & ATTACKS BY C&MA PASTORS RE CHINESE CHURCH SEIZURE:
http://rock-to-salt.cephasministry.com/CMASkullandCrossbonesRM.pdf
and
http://www.purposedrivel.com/2008/09/pastor-jim-grumbines-charitable.html

Pastor Jim Grumbine's charitable attitude

Upon hearing about the unethical behavior toward a fellow pastor by the illustrious Wayne Spriggs, Jim Grumbine of Discovery Church.   um... what denomination is that again? OH Christian & Missionary Alliance... wonder why it isn't in the name of the church? I think I remember reading that suggestion in a book or article by Rick Warren....taking your denomination out of the name of the church... turns people off. I guess I can see why in this case.  A lot of YELLING GOING ON AT THIS CHURCH, APPARENTLY:

From: jimgrumbine@juno.com
IT IS NOT MY DESIRE TO RECEIVE YOUR LIBELOUS AND TOXIC FAIRYTALES.

FURTHER, AS I HAVE NEVER COMMUNICATED WITH YOU AT ANY TIME FOR ANY PURPOSE, YOUR USE OF THIS PRIVATE EMAIL ADDRESS CONSTITUTES AN INVASION OF PRIVACY, AND I CAN ONLY CONCLUDE THAT YOU HAVE OBTAINED IT THROUGH QUESTIONABLE MEANS.

YOU ARE INSTRUCTED TO REMOVE MY EMAIL ADDRESS FROM ALL FURTHER COMMUNICATION.

JAMES GRUMBINE
Um.. yeah those questionable means of communicating with other people who know you.  If contacting someone once or twice by email to plead with them regarding an injustice done, or warn them against spiritual danger, is that really an invasion of privacy?  In the latter case (warning against spiritual danger) the world might think so, but should Christians really play that card so easily?  Next thing you know that will be the defense of anyone who has Matt 18's church disciplinary process brought against them.

His phone number is available online.  I wonder if anyone who calls it with a message he doesn't want to hear is accused of violating his privacy?  Snail mail?  Violating right to privacy, surely!

A man who hardens his neck after much reproof Will suddenly be broken beyond remedy. Prov 29:1


Lord help us to submit to warnings and to stand up for the oppressed, even those who are being oppressed by those who call themselves brethren.

September 23, 2008

Wayne Spriggs threatens James Sundquist

Hmmm...taking our cues from Richard Abanes are we?

-----Original Message-----
From: James Sundquist [mailto:rock.salt@verizon.net]
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2007 8:29 AM
To: district.office@epdcma.org
Subject: Followup: re Lynn Kent Intentional Interim Pastor at Elizabethtown CMA
Importance: High

Dear District Director Wayne Spriggs, Dear Pastor Jim Moynihan, Chris Dellinger, Terry Amig, Annie Parkins, Phill Stumpf, Connie Shope,Becky Woods, Mike Erickson,Yvonne Schleh, Bob Dodson, Flossie Kark, Bonnie Espenshade, Deb Jones, Cody Miller, Jeff Morral, Doug Bradnick, the Elders and Members of Elizabethtown Christian & Missionary Alliance Church,

To date, I have not received a response from you or any of your staff regarding your intentions to retain Lynn Kent as your intentional interim pastor.

Are you still going to retain him in light of the revelations I sent you about him and what he did to members of Maranatha Bible Chapel in Horseheads? I would hope that you would be very concerned about those victms as well as what he might do to members of your own church.

I wanted to give you one final opportunity to respond to my appeal and alert. But if I don't hear back from you in the next few days, I will assume that you are proceeding or have already installed him, and will not be interviewing any of the victims at Maranatha and are not really interested in their plight, and will so indicate this in my special report on the C&MA which will go out nationally within ten days.

Sincerely in Christ,

James Sundquist

----- Original Message -----
From: Wayne Spriggs
To: 'James Sundquist'
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 9:39 AM
Subject: RE: Followup: re Lynn Kent Intentional Interim Pastor at Elizabethtown CMA

Dear Mr. Sundquist,

This letter will serve both as a request and warning to you.

I am asking you to immediately cease and desist from interfering in the life and ministry of any Eastern PA District Church. We do not hold your views on the subjects you have raised with us. I have thoroughly checked into the matters you mentioned in the previous email and they are bogus!

I will not engage you or allow you to engage in the life and ministry of any Eastern PA District Church. I need to warn you that I take very seriously your interference in our churches. If I receive any information at all of any further interference on your part, I will take whatever action necessary to prevent your engagement with our churches.

I regret the need to write to you in this manner, but I view your interference in one of our churches as a very serious intrusion into ecclesiastical matters which are not the perusal of non members of a local Christian and MissionaryAlliance Church.

We do not hold your views, we do not subscribe to your opinions, and we do not have any interest in your perspective on the subjects you have raised with us. Give yourself to something more positive, such as expanding the kingdom of God with lost people!

I trust we will not have any further interference by you.

Yours sincerely,


Rev. J. Wayne Spriggs
District Superintendent
Eastern PA District.

----------------------------
From: "James Sundquist"
Date: September 6, 2007 10:54:32 AM EDT
To: "Wayne Cole"
Subject: CMA D.S. for Eastern PA threatens James Sundquist

Dear Wayne,

Well the CMA is showing its fangs again. Trying now to threaten and intimidate me. But they will not succeed.

Note that Spriggs thinks he owns those members and can speak for them. Let them ask to be removed from my mailings to them and exposing both Spriggs and Kent nationally. Notice how tender hearted and kind he is about what happened to members of Maranatha Bible Chapel!

What do you think? And there can be anyone left who wonders what Miller has done and will do to intimidate its members?

It is amazing to me the lengths they will go to shield themselves behind the cloak of it is an ecclesiastical matter (just like the Roman Catholic Church did with the priests molesting boys)

While they work on destroying the Kingdom of God, we will work to preserve it from these scoundrels!

Blessings,
James

September 22, 2008

(UPDATED) C&MA seizing churches/assets of faithful pastors

The Christian & Missionary Alliance has started to seize the assets and churches of those who resist the man-centered philosophies the denominational leadership is trying to foist on them, such as Purpose Driven/seeker sensitive, and Emerging mysticism.

It sounds like the false teaching and abuse of power in the name of Rick Warren continues unabated... the danger continues and so we must continue to shout from the housetops to flee the sinking purpose driven ship and get into the real Ark of safety, the glorious salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, for the glory of God alone, and to comfort those who have been cast out by the false teachers in their circles, slandered before their congregations, and turned on by those who once were friends. We remind you that you are not alone! We have, many of us, suffered the same fate. And greatest of all, Christ suffered this reproach -- this is his reproach that we bear. And so count it all joy! I know it does not feel that way now.

Pastor Bob Iddings has written up a testimony of what happened to him in the Christian & Missionary Alliance at the hands of one Wayne Spriggs, District Superintendent of the Eastern Pennsylvania District of the Christian and Missionary Alliance and its District Executive Committee.

Summary_Letter.doc

Shout_From_the_Roof_Top.doc


UPDATE: James asked some questions for clarification and here are the answers from Bob Iddings:
Response_to_James_Sundquist_092208.doc
[END UPDATE]

The behaviors of Spriggs and his cronies is eerily familiar. The secrecy, the miscommunication, no documentation, not allowing witnesses, the lies, the "hurry up we need to get this meeting scheduled" stuff...oy... it almost looks like they're all being controlled by the same entity!

September 16, 2008

Another Purpose Driven Deception - this time from the Discernment ministries

I guess it's time to write an article about the general phenomenon of how even anti purpose driven churches and ministries still behave in the PD way with those who raise real issues.

People who flee PD churches NEED to hear that they will encounter another deception -- where people say they are against PD but they have not rid themselves of the machiavellian tactics used to create Unity in that type of church. Rather than loving reconciliation, the one who is wronged and dares to be upset about it or consider it worthy of proceeding through Matt 18's prescription for dealing with it become marginalized just because they want to follow Scripture.  People who have been dragged behind the Purpose Driven horse suddenly find themselves in the middle of it all over again.  It is not fun, especially if not much time has passed since the first dragging to emotionally process it all and regain some strength and composure.  I just want to encourage those who find themselves in this situation to take courage -- you are not alone!

It is grievous... and very many good ministries either are helpless to say anything because those who are witnesses to the grievous act will not come forward, stick their necks out, bear the reproach of Christ, and testify to the truth. Other ministries, when the information and witnesses DO come forward, just don't listen because they believe it is not their problem, when Scripture says it is.

Yes, we have precious few friends... which is exactly why we need to expose the deeds of darkness and hold our friends to a Biblical standard, lest they fall into sin and disgrace. One of the most useful things a parent uses with their children is to pray that when their children sin, that they will get caught! Because if they do not get caught, they learn instead the pleasures of sin seemingly without consequences... and the sin grows! Why are we as foolish adult children of God any different?

Bob DeWaay had to go through it with Brian Flynn... so he should know that it is heartbreaking and yes it is still possible to do.  Still, I have not seen a public statement on this issue.

In any case, you refugees from Purpose Driven churches need to know that you are not alone if you run into the same behavior in discernment ministries -- threatening, lying, ostracizing, marginalizing, rebuke for daring to stand up against sin in a member of a discernment ministry. Just because they understand PD is wrong does not make them a good leader, nor does it make them right in every other area.  Consider Jacob Prasch's calling John Piper and R C Sproul 'deceivers who are deceiving others' in his address at Tri City Calvary Chapel on August 24, 2008.  Consider Jacob saying that the only church worth your time is a dispensational church that doesn't teach covenant theology. In doing this, Jacob has created false division in the church -- he has excluded people like the White Horse Inn guys, and Issues Etc, and he should be rebuked (hoping for repentance) and separated from, as the Scripture tells us about divisive issues contrary to the gospel.

However, (putting on my sarcasm hat now) since we have SO FEW FRIENDS in the discernment community, we are willing to compromise with people who cause false divisions, and rebuke those who raise this concern as being divisive. Sound familiar? I think you'll read about this tactic in Dan Southerland's book "Transitioning" (taking off sarcasm hat) although it's presented favorably there.

September 15, 2008

Rick Warren Breaks Pastoral Confidence

Apparently pastoral confidence means little to Rick Warren:

http://briefingroom.thehill.com/2008/09/11/palin-called-rick-warren-for-guidance/

And the accuracy of the story doesn't seem to mean much to him either. There is some question as to who initiated the call. Rick Warren did!

"Well actually she called me yesterday," Warren said. "The question I asked her was 'how can I pray for you?'"


Warren said that Palin then "asked me to send her some bible verses on how do you deal with the unfair, unjust attacks and the mean-spirited criticism that comes in."

-snip-

UPDATE: Palin's camp calls to say that the Alaska Gov. was returning Warren's call. According a Palin spokeswoman, Warren called her on Saturday September 6 and she returned his call on Monday September 8. The Monday phone call is when the above conversation described by Warren took place.


Always trying to insert himself in the movers and shakers. Doesn't ANYONE see the Eddie Haskell act going on?  

RW: "It's not about you."

RW: "No, it really IS all about ME!"

September 2, 2008

Jacob Prasch and David Lister sowing more false divisions

Jacob Moriel has sadly turned on his friend James Sundquist:

http://www.moriel.org/articles/notice_board/statement_james_sundquist.htm

James's response

In it you will find transcripts and links to all the pertinent audio but here they are all together:

Bear calling Mike's wife:
http://www.voiceoftruthradio.com/james/bearnmikewife.mp3

Bear calling Mike:
http://www.voiceoftruthradio.com/james/bearnmiketelephone.mp3

Next day's public slander of Bear at the seminar:
http://www.voiceoftruthradio.com/james/slanderofbearpub.mp3

David Oxedine's testimony
http://www.voiceoftruthradio.com/james/davidoxedinetestimony.mp3 (difficult to listen - highly compressed sounding EQ but oh well)

Bear's record of events (be patient with all the detail he provides - much of it is important to the story eventually)
http://www.voiceoftruthradio.com/james/A%20Taste%20Of%20Mushroom/tasteofmushroom.mp3

This is so disappointing to see Jacob Prasch, David Lister, Mike Gendron, and the Higgins men behaving in this "Lording it over you" fashion.   As far as I can tell, this began as a discussion James started regarding this video which I reported on here:

http://www.purposedrivel.com/2008/08/churchwatch-on-youtube-sowing-false.html

In trying to discredit the source of the video, in the course of this discussion, rather than deal with the issue of the video twisting Bob DeWaay's words in an Abanes-esque fashion, Jacob tried to discredit the messenger (whoever 'churchwatch' is) by likening that person to some ministries who he has some personal beefs with, (names which for the most part I did not know of, other than Robert Morey) as well as a certain individual Bear Frankson. This is how the issue that was three years old was "inexplicably raised."  So again they are misrepresenting the issue and defending themselves with frantic red herrings. They (David and Jacob) were the ones who raised it. And yet, wonder of wonders, they have no idea why it was raised again. David Lister and Jacob went on to mischaracterize Bear's phone call to Mike Gendron's wife late at night, well as his phone call to Mike himself, as 'harassing' in nature, to all of us privy to the email discussion.

Jacob and David's condescending screed against Jacob's longtime friend James Sundquist claims that a host of witnesses found Bear's actions at the conference disrupting... what host of witnesses?  Names?  Details?  What was said and done specifically that was inappropriate? You cannot make a case by saying "a bunch of people were offended."  If you want to go down that road you will incriminate your own ministry!  HOSTS and HOSTS of people ARE offended by Moriel ministries, you can be sure of that.  But are they offended for the right reasons?  I would argue, for the most part, they are not, with the exception of this particular development.

The statement Jacob and David made (after apologizing for misrepresenting Bear by accusing him of harassment and of touching pastor Higgins' wife) does not seem to add up to what was recorded in the meeting in the first sound clip where Bear was publicly defamed without opportunity to defend himself.

Bear doesn't seem to be 'harassing' anyone. The wife was not upset (as a pastor's wife with a publicly posted ministry number I would suppose he/she gets calls at all hours). He was polite. But the out of normal hours timing of the phone call, if it did happen that way, is certainly understandable because of the fact that someone had just called 911 on him. (or rather, LIED about having called 911 as was found out later - and even LIED ABOUT LYING about calling 911 - now THAT is weirdness in the name of Christ, Mr John Higgins!)   I don't know that I would have been nearly as composed.

I pleaded with one council member and we visited (my husband, me, this council member, and his wife) until 2:30 am one night.  We spent most of the afternoon not talking about it and then started, close to nightfall... and we just kept talking.  It would blow my mind, if, after those very good (albeit animated at times) conversations those people were to turn and say we harassed them.

Mike gave him the phone number and for all Bear knew it was his cell number which would have rung wherever Mike was at the time, even if Bear had KNOWN it was a Dallas area code.   He would not have been able to know it was a land line on such short notice.

I initially thought Mike G was caught in the middle not having been there and felt like he couldn't really do anything anyway.   He does say it wasn't his problem at all.  Except that ... as a shepherd in the church of the Lord, you are bound to minister to his sheep whenever they need it.  And you are bound to examine the people you yoke together with.  If they are behaving the way Jeremy and John Higgins have behaved, then you are bound to confront their sin.  Especially if this guy is yelling across you at Bear as you sit in his car...AFTER you told Bear you would try to stick up for him.

However, Mike says in his email to James that it is not his fight and he should not be involved, and then turns around and lends support to the Higgins side of the story  anyway, in the Q&A session at the seminar.  Holy Double-Standard Disappointment, Batman!

It would sure be nice to see a mediated RECORDED meeting between all these people to get the issues aired and resolved. It doesn't seem to be high on Jacob's priority list, nor Higgins' in spite of Jacob's insistence that both sides be heard.  And Sherry, well, I am pretty sure she would like to just stay in hiding.  Bear was not given a chance to be heard at the meeting where they lauded the ability of Mike to forgive Bear's tresspasses (which had not at that time been resolved apparently!)  They have been slandering this poor guy for three years with impunity and obviously THEY have not let it go.   Bear did not ask to raise this issue again.  DAVID LISTER AND JACOB PRASCH RAISED THE ISSUE by repeating lies about a private citizen that they had heard from their host church down there.

The actual witnesses present in many church fights seem to think the opposition's behavior is 'unChristian' and 'improper.'  But that is not a testimony of events which the Bible calls for ("by the testimony of two or three witnesses" etc.), that is an opinion ABOUT the events.  

I was also purpose driven out of a church.  I know some of what was said about me behind my back when I was on trial.  For example, it is a fact that I trembled throughout every meeting, not because I was scared, but because I felt so strongly about what was going on, and was so upset over people's inability to see the truth.  I did not rant or rave.  I shed tears briefly twice.  (although for some reason that didn't rally anyone to my side.  I guess I don't do 'helpless' very well.)  I was no more 'excited' in the meetings than anyone else (especially the last one when Jim Fretheim led the meeting and turned it openly hostile!!)

This trembling was taken to mean I was on the brink of a breakdown. No, Jody, it's because I HATE confrontation and I love the truth. And I am so grieved when people (including myself) have bought lies!  Surprise surprise! 

Incidentally a few months later, I also trembled when I was at a political event locally to hear Michelle Bachman discuss some proposed Defense of Marriage legislation. The pro-gay people were there of course too and when they started to rant, I started to shake.

I harbor no illusions that discernment ministries aren't subject to the same temptations to vilify the opposition when their back is up against the wall or they suffer some sort of embarrassment. I just watched Ray Comfort do the two step around his responsibility to confront error, and treat those who warned him about it with condescension, resulting in their discrediting among his staff and supporters.  As wonderful as Ray's ministry is, and as bold as he is with unbelievers, he was not bold enough to openly thank the people who warned him and act the slightest bit contrite.  Nor was he bold enough to lend his credibility among his supporters to bolster theirs once again.  No good deed goes unpunished, I guess it's true.

Bear Frankson has no assets to protect. A ministry does. The bigger it gets, the more temptation to protect the reputation and not acknowledge faults. These things plus the audio verification of Moriel's twisting of facts are leaning me FAR in Bear's direction. Yeah he may have been vocal. Ray Comfort and his crew are vocal on the street as well and we applaud them for their boldness. 

Are we going to fault Tony Miano for preaching and confronting error outside the LA version of the Lakeland revival? I'm sure he was even less welcome there than Bear was outside the event he was at (an event where the speakers agreed with him on these issues) because he was actually preaching against he false prophet Todd Bentley.  Bear was outside saying he agreed with the speakers but they kicked me out anyway.  Is a difference in style worth all the fuss Moriel has created over it by their spreading falsehoods to make Bear look even worse in the eyes of his friends?  I know some would say Jacob is at least as offensive if not more so, in style,  than any claims about Bear.

Here's testimony from an eyewitness, David Oxedine
http://www.voiceoftruthradio.com/james/davidoxedinetestimony.mp3

My take:
It sounds like this Sherry person started it with her complaint against Bear (because she didn't like his style) for using something she said about PDL in his material packet. That got the men in her life all protective and emotional against, who was the perceived threat against this damsel in distress.  Bear couldn't just set aside his Biblical principles and coddle the poor lady, so they got after him to get in line with everyone else who felt sorry for the cowardly lady who put her hand to the plow and then turned back.

And so they overreacted when he disregarded that request and continued to use her testimony (fair use) in his anti-PD packet. From that point on Bear can do no right in their eyes and they got all territorial about every nitpicking thing and blew it all out of proportion.

John Higgins makes the statement that a late night phone call is so hard to forgive.  ESPECIALLY when this kind of 'weirdness' comes from Christians.

If you ask me, the lies and slander against a brother who tries to stand up for the truth -- that is harder to forgive.  Dear Jesus please help me, I am trying.   But it is for the benefit of Moriel, and of John Higgins and his out of control boys, as well as Sherry Neese and her husband Lanny that I write against them. I plead with them, that they may repent.  For until they do no reconciliation can take place.

from the Moriel statement:
Of more concern however is the absurdity of protesting and of publicly rampaging against others who oppose Purpose Driven, ecumenism, and the other discernment related issues Mr. Sundquist himself is concerned with. To shoot your own allies when you have so few of them to begin with in a war against apostasy is frankly ludicrous.
Hmm yessss....quite tragically ironic at this point...