June 29, 2008

A Church On Fire

James Sundquist sent me this video which he received from Jackie Alnor:

A Church On Fire

and asked me

Strange Fire indeed!

Would you have this woman at the end baysit
(sic) your daughter?

Please view the video and then continue reading.

I replied to both James and Jackie (with a few added phrases for clarity now that I reread it! indicated by brackets and blue text):

My sister did exactly that with my daughter (now 15) when she was about 5 years old. Took her to her wacky church, MADE her go up front too after my daughter protested and didn't want to go (She saw all the people rolling around). She went up and as I recall her telling me, she fell down too and just laid there. She seems to remember feeling like she didn't go down voluntarily, but as a child who knows? She said her memory of it is a little foggy.

She knows it is not of God and even as a little child [it seems] she knew... and I did not know that my sister did this until a few years ago. It infuriates me. My sister is currently living in Florida and has very little contact with the family, doesn't even hardly check in on her aging and very ill, depressed and lonely mother - won't move closer to home to help mom out because she 'doesn't like the cold weather.'

How's that for compassionate and Christlike?  

I told her a few years ago, after many years of patience and prayer, that the teachers she was following were teaching her lies (at the time she was enjoying Rick Joyner) and her salvation experience was questionable to me. She had been on the verge of killing herself when she saw Ken Copeland and he said something about turning it all over to Jesus and dont' do something desperate. (something along those lines) so she immediately began speaking in tongues. To her it was real so she insists it was the Holy Spirit. And one thing led to another, and she has followed every fad. I am almost certain she is down there checking this out too. She will not speak to me anymore about anything spiritual.

[I guess I'm just one of those spiritually dead Christians stuck in dead religiosity.  Sigh.]

BTW my oldest daughter loves the Lord and doesn't fall for any of this stuff. She is even discerning enough now to start picking out messages that are just man-centered (purpose driven, emergent, new age, seeker sensitive) rather than outright blasphemous. Our 12 year old [girl] is pretty sharp on that too. And the almost 9 yr old [boy] is coming along too. We talk about these things with them all the time. Youtube is a GREAT tool for showing them examples of false teaching. And we listen to a LOT of great teaching too and discuss it. I love talking about Jesus with my family. I only wish my extended family felt the same. Jason's family is definitely in love with the Lord and loves to discuss spiritual things, but my family remains immature and carnal, despite my Dad's best attempts to instruct us before he died in 1990.


*******
end of email to James and Jackie
*******

Returning to my bullying middle sister and her rather inconsiderate behavior...she was like that as a kid too. She bullied me a lot, being 7 years older than me, and nothing has changed all that much since her supposed conversion. I remember one day I, as kids will occasionally do, spilled a chocolate shake when she was babysitting me. I was about 8 or 9. She literally SCREAMED at me, chased me upstairs, and pinned me down on the bed by the wrists, and yelled in my face for fifteen minutes straight about how horrid I was and how I ought to be ashamed of myself. Ah the good old days. When I cross her she is still quite a bully.

She has apologized for her rude treatment of me as a kid. She called me in tears one morning after my mother relayed somethng I had told her about our childhood (basically that I dont' remember much of anything about her except her pushing me around and making me feel like she hated me), and so I forgive her for that. But I still long to see fruit in her life in keeping with her years.

A few years ago she blew up at me for her shirt getting caught on a fish hook in my car - you know, I had my rod in the back of the station wagon, with the spinner hooked securely to a rod guide, and the rod was up over the back of the back seat so she brushed against it when leaning into the car.  She went in there to put my daughter in her car for me and I was following her out the door about fifteen seconds later. She was already mad at me because I was feeling down about something and she seems to think that means I'm mad at her. Well, she had been sniping at me all weekend already but I had refrained from responding in kind. So she yells at me to get the fishhook out of her shirt.  I started to explain why the tight weave of her shirt may not let me easily back it out over the barb.  But she yelled before I got two words out "Then CUT THE HOOK!"  I started to explain why that would be difficult, but I was surely willing to do it, but I didn't get two words out and she YELLED "Then you SURE better buy me a new shirt!" This from a 34 year old lady. These are the anger filled codependent types that gravitate toward the Bentley type word faith Toronto Curse phenomenon. I have seen it over and over again.

I stopped trying to reason with her and immediately came back into the house crying. She and my mom left for church in my mother's car, and my daughter was left sitting in the car seat for a few minutes. My husband and me and the girls (this was a few years before our son was born) had been going to leave for home, a 9 hour drive, after lunch. Instead, we packed up and left. I left a note on the table for her explaining why I could not simply 'cut' the hook to get it free - those larger Mepps spinner tri-hooks are incredibly strong. But she hadn't listened to me try to explain when I was at her side. Instead she just yelled every time I opened my mouth.  I also explained that she had been snipping at me with saracastic hurtful comments all weekend and I didn't appreciate it, and this last blow up was completely uncalled for.

My mother fills me in that her reaction upon reading the note was to burst into tears herself and spit out sarcastically "It's ALWAYS MY FAULT!" 

When we arrived home, there was a message on my answering machine. For reasons of keeping my sanity, I waited three days until I was less emotional to listen to it. The message, when I finally listened to it, was delivered in a very clipped and chiding tone. It said "I'm sorry, Paula, for losing my temper but I am not a perfect person. God is still working on me. BUT YOU ARE A VERY UNHAPPY PERSON and I AM NOT going to take responsibility for your unhappiness anymore. I love you and I want you to be free but I can't take responsibility for your unhappiness anymore."

I just sat there with my mouth open and then laughed out loud in shock. Sure I struggle with depression, sure I have unhappy times, but have I ever blamed her? Was this an apology for anything specific? Did she have NO clue???

I have another story where she blew up at me for explaining how I had (in the past) used a home electrolysis kit on an aberrant eyelash, which for years my mom and dad didn't believe I had, as a kid.  They always told me it was all in my head.  The point of the story was that Mom and Dad didn't believe ALL THREE OF US a lot of the time about some of these things, and we were chuckling about it... until she started yelling at me for being so foolish as to use an electrolysis kit.  "Don't you know you can get a terrible infection or allergic reaction" blah blah (yes I know you can have problems but I was desperate after 30 some years of irritation, and the chances of allergic reaction are going to be FAR greater with electrolysis tools that are SHARED with others! Mine was not!)  But she jumped all over every word I said so I could not get a word in edgewise. I was speaking very quietly and calmly, refusing to raise my voice to the level she was using.  The level she was using got higher and higher, until finally she ran out of the room in tears.  It seems every time we got together we'd have one of these situations.  So it's probably a good thing she lives so far away. *sigh*  I wish it were different.
 
My oldest sister witnessed the whole thing and was aghast at my other sister's behavior.

Well, I have prayed many long years for her and I expect if she's caught up in the Rick Joyner/Todd Bentley gnosticism, it will be many more.


Moral of the story -- I wouldn't let charismaniacs babysit my small children, no. At least not over any time period where they might take the children to church.

June 28, 2008

Rapture to come sometime between August 1-20!

The end of the world is near! Oh wait that's overused.

Some youtuber named Ravenwolf789 has posted her prophecy on a Bentley video comment section:

This move of God is in preparation to the glory of God or the rapture-this event will happen I feel in 45 days from now-this is the great illumination of the true church-The light will become 7x stronger both spiritual and in the sun for 7 full days, Isaiah 30:25 This is spiritual return of Christ on or about august 1-20 right after Bentleys last day of the revival. Then 7 full yrs of tribulation, followed and ended by the return of the flesh christ to rule the flesh
.

I just checked my I-Cal... the Schwan man is supposed to come that day. Drat! Or wait, maybe that is what she means? Ice Cream can be pretty rapturous can't it? Maybe Jesus will serve me Ice Cream! Or maybe it will be Emma. Or winds of change. Whoops don't blow too hard, my ice cream might melt. Can we turn down the freshfire a bit just until I finish my rapturous Ice Cream?

On the serious side, I do believe we are in the end times, and Todd Bentley is part of God's judgement of strong delusion. Lord, have mercy. Your perfect judgement is terrible indeed!

Todd Bentley preaches the authentic gospel? Hardly!

I am so tired of watching people fall for this charlatan. Today I found a five part 'authentic gospel' series posted on youtube which supposedly is an answer to the charge that Todd doesn't preach the gospel.

Well I took the time to listen to ALL FIVE ten minute parts.

Basically in the first part he said this
from the first part starting about 1:50 in and following
"simply, the gospel message is the vehicle in which the kingdom comes. The manifestation of God's kingdom is the gospel in action. One of the criticisms of this outpouring has been Todd, are you preaching the gospel? And I know people preaching the gospel, but have no gospel in action. And we've been preaching the gospel in America. But what is the gospel of the kingdom of God? See I believe the gospel of the Kingdom of God is: " The Kingdom of heaven is at hand." There is no gospel without demonstration. It's one and the same. The message, the gospel, the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. You can't have the kingdom without the gospel. You can't have the gospel without the Kingdom. The Kingdom of Heaven is the manifestation and demonstration . The King's world showing up in our midst. Say "Hisworld!" audience:"His World" "His world" audience:"his world" Bentley: "the King's domain. Domain of the King. The rule, the reign of the King. Simply put, "the way that it is in heaven." say "the way that it is in heaven."


OK so we still have no idea what this gospel message is that he is supposed to be preaching. Then in parts 2 and 3 he basically reemphasizes what he said (and didn't say) in part 1.

Although he does get a little new agey in part 3 talking about getting in touch with the kingdom of God inside you and 'releasing it' into the world. Of course then he already in part 1 decried similar preachers like Oprah and Eckhardt Tolle and Wayne Dyer and psychics, all the while preaching the same thing they do.

in part 3 toward the end starting around 6:45 and beyond

"but... how many of you can access the presence of God ... from within? Just go ahead and try it. Ready? (closes eyes) 'oh Hi Lord. Thank you Jesus'

[interesting that he is calm and UNTWITCHY when he is supposed to be accessing God's presence... so why all the twitching and rolling on the floor as a manifestation of the presence of God?]

"...the Holy Spirit lives in me. I have the anointing right now. huh. Look at this sickness here. I've defeated you. BAM!' You think when I lay hands on people it's just one of these empty handed boombah? I've learned how to let the spirit that's in me QUICKEN my spirit and I've learned how to let the virtue that's in me come OUT of me and touch your need! Try it. Close your eyes. (closes eyes) whoosh. There he is. Feel the presence of the Lord? Release it... Release it... Release it... Release it... Release it...Release it. Healing is about releasing the virtue that's inside you. Healing is about bringing the Kingdom that's inside you. But you cannot manifest the Kingdom if you're not in tune with the presence of the Lord. And if you can't just stop and shut off your mind and every external distraction... the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead dwells in me.

[now there's the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit if I ever heard it.]

"and I'm simply ...in touch. There's resurrection power inside of me."



In part 4 he says something like this (i didn't take the time to transcribe it completely, because I was getting bored with the waiting for the gospel message by this time)

"so my suggestion is that if we really are the church how come I don't see healing everywhere?"
"they went out and preached the gospel and healing everywhere"
""I am going to stay in my mantle and my anointing is evangelism, my anointing is the gospel of the kingdom, and my anointing is healing and healing is a part o the gospel... I know who I am and I know how God has called me and anointed me, and I'm not going to go trying to preach something that God didn't call me to preach"
"It's not everything but it's full gospel"


So he says it's the full gospel, therefore it is? That's like Rick Warren saying the Purpose Driven Life isn't about you! In fact he does tip his hat to seeker sensitive philosophy at the end of segment 1:


he says after quoting or paraphrasing 1 cor 2:2 and v 4 at about 8:45 in:

"my speech and my preaching was not in persuasive words of human wisdom, nor debates. And the greater the way we present the message. And I'm telling you, I'm not compromising the message by trying to present it in a way that I think that you want to hear it. I'm not trying to debate you, I'm not trying to argue you, I'm telling you there's countries that I go in and there's people right now in America, they go "Where's the signs? Where's the evidence? We've been hearing the message, yes God loves us, and every church in America's preaching the gospel, but WE NEED SOMETHING MORE! What makes Jesus Christ different than any other religion? We're watching the psychics on TV and we're watching the supernatural on the talk shows and Oprah and Montel" and so many people even in the church today are so fascinated by the Criss Angels, and the David Blaines,


[continuing to segment 2]

and all the supposed supernatural that's out there on the reality series...well I am telling you they are pitching the idea to us right now, Holly wood is gonna be here, and they're saying Todd, we want a reality series on the healing ministry, and the revival in Lakeland!


[I say, BRING IT ON!]

I said it's about time that the power of God gets a little attention!

[and here is one example of where I hear echoes of the vocal cadence of Nuremberg]

I'm tired of Oprah, I'm tired of Phil, I'm tired of Montel bringing all their psychics and all their people with these supposed gifts, I'm there "come on! Bring me on your talk show!!" I'll talk about miracles,we'll move in a word of knowledge, we'll move in a gift of (there seems to be an edit and missing words right here) we'll show them real power! I'm tired of counterfeit supernatural, counterfeit signs, false signs, and false Christs, and false wonders. I'm coming in a demonstration of the Holy Spirit and power, we're going back to the Bible! Back to the book of Acts!"

Back to the Bible indeed. Don't forget to leave out 2 Thess 2.

Part 5 is a testimony of how in the middle of his criminal dealings with drugs and arson and whatnot, God or Jesus "appeared" to him while he was looking for drugs, and suddenly after this 'visitation' he knew he was free from drugs and everything. Uh... ok.

Well I don't have a drug problem nor am I a car thief as Bentley says he was, nor an arsonist as he says he was...so how does that help someone like me? And why doesn't he confess to some of these crimes and go pay the restitution he should? That woudl be REAL repentance.

Todd Bentley-7 Signs of the Kingdom-The Authentic Gospel 1/5 is the first part. Follow the links from the youtube user to the other parts.

I simply cannot understand how someone, thinking they are showing us something by presenting this 'answer' to the charge that he does not preach the gospel, can MISS the fact that the GOSPEL IS NOT THERE!

The level of discourse drops considerably (Stephen Strader)


Here's a little back and forth I was treated to thanks to James Sundquist. The exchange is mostly with one "Pastor" (imposter) Steven Strader who calls lies by his dad to his dad's church "heavenly exaggerations." Way to go Steven! What next? Making women strip in order to receive their anointing? OH wait that's already been done (cough cough Bob Jones formerly of KCProphets). How about physically assaulting people in the name of Jesus? OH wait that's already been done too. Spreading lies about the people who try to correct you? Hey that's straight out of Rick Warren's and Dan Southerland's (Church Transitions, Inc) playbook for blacklisting the saints who try to stand up to his lies as well! Too bad, all these new moves of (some) spirit have already been tried! You'll have to be more creative Stephen.

As you can see, the level of inanity that comes from the Bentley bunch seems to know no bounds.
*******************

On Jun 26, 2008, at 9:31 PM, Paula wrote:

James is right, as are all these discernment ministries he has cc'd which have pointed out Todd Bentley's false anointing and false teaching. He's worse than the heretics Benny Hinn, Ken Copeland, Jan and Paul Crouch, Peter Popov, Bob Jones formerly of KC Prophets, Kathryn Kuhlman, William Branham, etc.

These are all charlatans attracting attention to themselves and their 'visions' and angels, as Paul soundly condemned in Colossians 2, and made merchandise of naive needy people, as we are warned against in 2 Peter 2.

Paula
www.purposedrivel.com
*****************************

On Jun 27, 2008, at 11:20 AM, Watchmans Helper wrote:

James is absolutely correct and I commend him for stepping out, as he always has, to sound the alarm that there are wolves among the sheep. I recently heard Todd Bentley for the first time, on audio, and he sounds horribly demonic. What he says and does goes so obviously against Scripture. We are in the midst of the foretold apostasy, folks, and Bentley is one of many ravening wolves that Paul warned the church about with tears. The worst thing for the church is its lack of discernment as it blindly accepts doctrines of demons, at such a critical hour in church history.

In Christ,

Angie
****************
Subject: Re: Response to false charges and false teachings of Todd
Bentley, Stephen R. Strader Brian...
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 03:38:09 +0000

absolutely wrong

Stephen Strader
stephenstrader@gmail.com
www.ignitedchurch.com

Watch the Florida Healing Outpouring
go to website for link

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put subscribe on subject line
*********************************
Is this going to be an "yes he is" "No he isn't" kind of argument? Scriptural evidence for James being 'wrong' would be nice. As far as the other 'explanations' as to why today's prophets get Mulligans, Provide Scripture for that too. In the meantime, keep telling yourself your little fairy tales to make yourself feel good. It only tells us what 'lord' you are following. And it is not the Lord of heaven.

Castro's influence dying? (cough cough) [this 'influence dying' was proposed as an explanation to why some so called prophet's prophecy of Castro's death by the year 2000 didn't come to pass] Has his influence died? I must have missed that one too. I thought Cuba was still communist and the people trapped there!

Paula
www.purposedrivel.com
*********************
From: Stephen Strader
To: Paula
Subject: Re: Response to false charges and false teachings of Todd Bentley, Stephen R. Strader Brian...
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 13:53:18 +0000

I'm right you're wrong...

sounds childish doesn't it?

so does the rest of this trash

Stephen Strader
stephenstrader@gmail.com
www.ignitedchurch.com

Watch the Florida Healing Outpouring
go to website for link

Sign up for daily reports!
IgnitedEvents-subscribe@myinjesus.com
put subscribe on subject line
*********************

On Jun 28, 2008, at 11:20 AM, Paula wrote:

>I'm right you're wrong...
>sounds childish doesn't it?
>so does the rest of this trash


You learned your argumentation skills on the playground then? And that's OK with you?

Paula
www.purposedrivel.com

********************
From: Stephen Strader
To: Paula
Subject: Re: Response to false charges and false teachings of Todd Bentley,
Stephen R. Strader Brian...
Date:Â Â Sat, 28 Jun 2008 15:55:59 +0000

liar liar, pants on fire

Stephen Strader
stephenstrader@gmail.com
www.ignitedchurch.com

Watch the Florida Healing Outpouring
go to website for link

Sign up for daily reports!
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put subscribe on subject line

*****************

On Jun 28, 2008, at 11:59 AM, Paula wrote:
Brilliant!
******************
From: Stephen Strader
Subject: Re: Response to false charges and false teachings of Todd Bentley,
Stephen R. Strader Brian...
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 16:00:47 +0000

> thanks
>
> Stephen Strader
> stephenstrader@gmail.com
> www.ignitedchurch.com
>
> Watch the Florida Healing Outpouring
> go to website for link
>
> Sign up for daily reports!
> IgnitedEvents-subscribe@myinjesus.com
> put subscribe on subject line
*****************
From: "walter kambulow"

Subject: RE: true prophet liar liar, pants on fire Stephen Strader My father made a heavenly exaggeration." and he said, "confidentially the church's finances were in terrible shape."

Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 16:54:23 +0000

liar liar, pants on fire Stephen Strader

My father made a heavenly exaggeration.” and he said, “confidentially the church’s finances were in terrible shape.” He remarked that “some suppliers were not paid for months and CHC didn’t have enough money to pay their huge electrical bill.” Stephen Strader - Not Innocent” http://crooksag.tripod.com/crooks.pdf

Dear Paul, and deceived demonized Stephen Strader

Religious pharisaical liars, perjurers and thieves would tell us MT 7:1 "Judge not, that you be not judged? But they conveniently ignore 1COR 14:29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge? Believe it or not! It is true Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship (Toronto Airport Church of the Flesh or Cult of Fools), its executives and their friends such as Evangelist Benny Hinn, Pastor Stephen Strader, Rodney Howard Browne and Richard Roberts, believe that their “Third Wave Anointing” allows them to lie, slander, steal, use dirty tricks, and perjure as they are only accountable to God or to their friends/partners!( Liars and Perjurers in Revival http://cnt10b.tripod.com/revival.pdf , http://cnt10b.tripod.com/todd.pdf ).

NOW IF ANYBODY SHOULD NOT BE CALLING PEOPLE LIARS, IT’S DEFINITELY NOT STEPHEN STRADER WHOSE FATHER KARL AND BROTHER DAN ARE REAL LIARS AND THIEVES! DAN STRADER LEARNT IT ALL FROM HIS FATHER KARL WHO LEARNT IT ALL FROM THE DEVIL

Pastor Stephen Strader in whose church John Arnott’s protégé Canadian revivalist Todd Bentley is holding “a revival of demons” in Lakeland Florida talking about his father Assembly of God Senior Pastor Karl Strader, a thief and a liar, said it was okay to make “a heavenly exaggeration.”

Specifically at a Sunday morning church service in September, 1995 Pastor Karl Strader lied to his members about the Carpenter’s Home Church’s financial situation. He said that the church’s finances were in great shape. Pastor Stephen Strader, during a prayer meeting the following week, during a time of prayer and fasting, requested prayer for the church’s finances and justified his father’s statement to the group, “My father made a heavenly exaggeration.” and he said, “confidentially the church’s finances were in terrible shape.” He remarked that “some suppliers were not paid for months and CHC didn’t have enough money to pay their huge electrical bill.” [For the record, there was nothing heavenly about it, it was simply a lie, and it was rather hellish rather than heavenly.] (Chapter 10 Consequences - Not Innocent” http://crooksag.tripod.com/crooks.pdf)

But lying seems to be a way of life with the Straders in spite of being Pentecostal Christians. The Tampa Tribune on July 8, 1995 reported the following that says it all about Dan Strader.

Durden then pressed Strader on what his morals were all about.
“Do you feel it was wrong to lie to people? He asked.
“Yes.”
“But you did it anyway?”
“Yes,” Strader responded. “I definitely feel I compromised on ethical and moral conduct.”
“What kind of value system do you have to enable you to lie to people?” the prosecutor pressed.
“I had a very poor value system.”


At Dan’s sentencing, Pastor Karl Strader asked from the Judge for mercy for his son because this is his first offense. Maybe this was Dan’s Strader first offense at getting caught but reading the factual diverse material that I read, the pattern was already there in 1989 when Dan was in the insurance business forging signatures, and deceiving people.

The prosecution had shown that in 1990-1994, Dan and a Christian friend and graduate also of Oral Roberts University “floated checks between each other’s banks off and on for more than four years” in what is referred to as a “Check Kiting” scheme. It means checks are written even though the money to cover them is not in the bank.

Judge Doyle asked Pastor Karl Strader “How he could show mercy when the defendant has not shown remorse for his crimes.“

Judge Doyle told the Straders

the defendant unsuccessfully tried to convince a jury and the court that his only mistake was to make bad business decision because of this trust of other people .... The defendant quite clearly thought that he did not intend to hurt any one that he has not committed any crimes. He was unwilling to acknowledge the truth that it was criminal for him to lie to people to get their money and then use their money for his own purposes. He evidently believes that he is above the law and it is perfectly acceptable for him to defraud people [or deceive them]. There are many people who never will accept the truth of this case.”

Judge Doyle as a Minister of God went on to say something that was amazing to me and explains why God gave Dan Strader a 45 year sentence. He said, “I have prayed for wisdom on this, but how can I, as the conscience of the community forgive the man when, I have yet to hear Mr. Strader say he did anything illegal.”

Almost 40 people, including Strader’s sister and wife, in one day, spoke on Dan’s behalf. Karla Dixon his sister stated that her brother had a dream and not a scheme. His dream was to build homes for families on fixed incomes.” Most of the 11 investors who attended asked Judge Doyel to impose the maximum sentence.

Judge Doyel said “Since he won’t acknowledge stealing millions from the elderly, its not likely Daniel Strader will be rehabilitated” and sentenced the son of an Assembly of God preacher to 45 years in prison. Pastor Karl Strader and Dan’s wife Melissa were visibly upset with the sentence.

Karl Strader later said, “The sentence was unexpected, though he couldn’t understand why victims were so vengeful.” He said his son plans to appeal. Karl also stated “we hurt with those who hurt.” [Another one of his heavenly exaggerations as his son Stephen would put it.] Smiling Dan Strader declined to comment on the sentence and told the reporters “You can see me in jail.”

So why should the Senior Pastor of Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship, Steve Long, be any different but an unrepentant liar, slanderer and back stabber? Yes on many occasion that Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship Corporation and its executives/pastors defamed Walter Kambulow by using the web to spread hateful untrue things about Walter Kambulow. For example Pastor Steve Long of Toronto Airport Church sent an email to Rick Meyers on April 25, 2006 stating:

Sorry Rick, but Walter is as bad as they come. He has been disciplined by several churches in his past for rebelllion and blames every and all churches he has every been a part of. His wife wasn't stolen, she left him and if he had been a part of our church, which he wasn't; I wold be all over for him for slander. The way that he slanders his wife in public is horendous. He is not a part of our chrch so we are not responding to him-

It seem that the “spirit’ that leads and guides and inspires TACF and its followers and causes them to lie, behave like animals, and shake just like the devil, who is also very fearful and cowardly, taught them to character assassinate people when they didn’t know how to deal with substance of any serious issue, also taught them to persecute and sue their critics, who are calling for their prosecution, rather than to bless them as instructed by Jesus Christ – MT 5:44 "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,

It is also unethical if not immoral to have Pastors John Arnott and Steve Long start a fight with Walter Kambulow by “remote control” using the services of highly priced “Bay Street” lawyers saying all kinds of lies about Mr. Kambulow, character assassinating Mr. Kambulow, and charging all the legal costs of their solicitors, Aird & Berlis, to their family owned and run nonprofit charity loaded with family and friends and board of directors handpicked by founder John Arnott just like Richard Roberts did with his board of Regents of Oral Roberts University?

Walter Kambulow
Burlington, Ontario


Liars and Perjurers in Revival http://tbtacf.tripod.com/revival.pdf

Betrayal by Supergods http://supergods.tripod.com/betrayal.pdf

Apostasy http://supergods.tripod.com/apostasy.pdf

Not Innocent” http://crooksag.tripod.com/crooks.pdf


*****************
Subject: Re: Response to false charges and false teachings of Todd Bentley, Stephen R. Strader Brian...
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:45:06 +0000

btw that 'brilliant' comment was a little sarcasm... I think you missed it.

Thanks [Walter] for the evidence of Stephen's lying to his church as well as his partners in crime Karl (Father) and brother Dan, I will link to that just as soon as I post this entire childish discussion on the web with credit to Stephen and hopefully directing the attention of the Assemblies of God leadership (well, we can hope they will still care but hard to say when they are consumed with apostasy of Purpose Driven and other unbiblical nonsense).

Paula
www.purposedrivel.com
*****************

On Jun 28, 2008, at 11:31 AM, Paula wrote:


And God himself says that if a prophet produces miracles yet goes against his word (e.g. tells them to go after other gods - that includes ANGELS and distortions of Christ and the GOSPEL), do not follow him and do not listen/fear him.

God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow. He is entirely consistent throughout his word. He does not change the WAY he does things nor change rules of behavior for us that he established since the beginning of time.


But Bentley is doing JUST that. And giving credence and getting support from other men (perverts like Bob Jones) who do that also. This is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin and judgement. I don't see anything but partying going on here.

Paula
www.purposedrivel.com

********************
---------------------- Original Message: ---------------------
From: Stephen Strader
Subject: Re: true prophet
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 15:57:21 +0000

This is the Holy Spirit

Stephen Strader
stephenstrader@gmail.com
www.ignitedchurch.com

Watch the Florida Healing Outpouring
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******************

Subject: Re: true prophet
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 16:06:37 +0000

Well now my eyes have been opened just cuz you said that. Wow! Very
convincing!

Paula
www.purposedrivel.com

**************

Subject: true prophet
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 13:56:28 +0000

Mr watch man writes: A true prophet prophesies what God has already declared in His word, NOT new revelation.

Problem one... this isn't a correct statement

Stephen Strader
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On Jun 28, 2008, at 11:21 AM, qeylar@xxxxx.xxxx wrote:

OK so you say it's wrong. Why is it wrong?

I have heard from the Lord and he told me that Bentley is not sent from him. Why is my word from the Lord "wrong?"

Paula

****************
Subject: Re: true prophet
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 15:56:03 +0000

why are you right?

Stephen Strader
stephenstrader@gmail.com
www.ignitedchurch.com

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*********************

Subject: Re: true prophet
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 16:02:29 +0000

If only you would ask that same question of Bentley and yourself.

Paula


*************

On Jun 28, 2008, at 9:25 AM, Ray Gano wrote:

Hello All,

Very interesting discussion to say the least.

To Stephen ... I am in the news business, much of what you claim would have been in the news and I would have seen it, specially the raising of the dead part. But none of it was, so I believe you are parroting hearsay and ask for documentation. If you are unable to provide the documentation, then do the right thing and stop spreading lies.

What amazes me also is that with all the scripture and definitions I provided, none of that mattered to you.

In essence, through your attitude and rebuff, you are claiming to know more as well as be a better judge than that of God's Word the Bible.

All that you presented was your feelings and none of it backed by scriptural truth.

So I ask, why are you above scriptural truth?

In fact why are any of you who support these heretics allowed to set yourself above the scriptural truth found in God's Word the Bible?

What you are doing is leaning on your own understanding and not the Word of God.

Here is what scripture says..

John 14:15 (KJV) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Isaiah 8:20 (KJV) "to the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

1John 2:4 (KJV) He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

You and others are supporting and defending the works of modern day Nicolaitanes. This is a very dangerous side to be on.

Who are Nicolaitanes?

The church at ephesus (Revelation 2:6) is commended for hating the "deeds" of the Nicolaitanes, and the church of pergamos is blamed for having them who hold their "doctrines" (Revelation 2:15). They were seemingly a class of professing Christians, who sought to introduce into the church a false freedom or licentiousness, thus abusing Paul's doctrine of grace (compare 2 Peter 2:15, 2 Peter 2:16, 2 Peter 2:19), and were probably identical with those who held the doctrine of baalam (q.v.), Revelation 2:14. - From Eatons Bible dictionary

I show this to you because here is what Christ said himself...

Revelation 2:15 (KJV) so hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

I also wish to point you to my latest Prophezine's This Week In Bible Prophecy show on You Tube where I show Todd Bentley with his own mouth talking about kicking an old lady in the face as well as Patricia King and a "fairy dust" so called "act of God." These are not acts of God, they are acts of charlatans.

Please take the time and watch this and comment also.

************
Subject: Re: Response to false charges and false teachings of Todd Bentley, Stephen R. Strader Brian...

Ray

you are very mis-informed...

read this material - it will answer any questions you have...


Stephen Strader

stephenstrader@gmail.com
www.ignitedchurch.com

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**************

So if we REread it THEN it will quiet my doubts?

What material? More Todd Bentley material? At what point do I quit reading and say "this doesn't make any sense?" (well maybe if I read Just one more paragraph... just one more...it's always around the corner isnt' it...)

Jesus' sheep know his voice and will not follow impostors like Bentley. He doesn't have to keep calling and insisting it's him. "no really, just read this one more thing... then you'll recognize my voice!"

Paula
*****************
From: Stephen Strader
Subject: Re: REread this material - it will answer any questions you have... My
question is why are third wave leaders liars, thieves, perjurers and scoundrels
such as "The Fleecer" Rodney Howard Browne
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 15:56:57 +0000

If you were a child of God, then you would know HIS voice.

Stephen Strader
stephenstrader@gmail.com
www.ignitedchurch.com

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*************
Subject: Re: REread this material - it will answer any questions you have...
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 16:04:18 +0000
Paula wrote:

Right back atcha Stephen...

Paula
www.purposedrivel.com


**********************
Al wrote:
Subject: RE: true prophet
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 15:42:43 +0000

Hi All.

Perhaps we should determine what is "new revelation." New revelation is a word spoken in the name of the Lord, as coming from the Holy Spirit, which is directive and/or foretelling, and which is instruction to the whole Body of Chirst.(sic)

We already have the "more sure word of prophecy" given to us through the prophets and apostles; it is called "Scripture," "The Word of God," "The Bible."

**************

On Jun 28, 2008, at 11:52 AM, Paula wrote:

hear hear Al.


> >> Keep this in mind when you see charlatans claiming to be speaking
> >> in the name of the Lord today.
> > What is their life like? Where are they leading the people?


It is not what the Bentley followers like to point to either -- They point at what they see on TV or in publicity articles as authoritative as to what this or that teacher is like.

Also as the confession from the Toronto area pastor says, his church was turned to backbiting, gossip, and MUCH division once the Toronto blessing came in.

By their fruits...

Paula
www.purposedrivel.com
********************

From: Stephen Strader
Subject: Re: true prophet
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 15:59:19 +0000

I see a lot of rotten fruit in these emails.

Stephen Strader
stephenstrader@gmail.com
www.ignitedchurch.com

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***************************

Why are you right?

Paula
www.purposedrivel.com

June 14, 2008

well, nothing new -- Corrected and clarified

Original post time was 5/26/08 12:01 AM

Update/correction made in RED 6-14 after listening to Sunday School audio from Twin City Fellowship from 5-25 and 6-1.  Please, TCF readers, do not think I was attacking Bob.  I disagreed with the way he and Chris reported on some things intially, but I do not think Bob was swayed by Rick at all.  Bob and  Ryan, and all of you at TCF are still very precious to me.  And the people who tried to relay to me what happened at Sunday School were only trying to be kind because they knew this whole issue was very important to me.
*****************
update:
I have received an update on what Bob spoke about at Sunday School on 5-25 and that his personal impressions of RW are in the process of being edited out. OK. [Correction 6-14-08: they were deliberately not recorded because they were just personal opinons that were not relevant to the issue according to Bob in Sunday School 6-1.  My contention has always been that stuff like this should not be shared from the "teacher's chair."  In private conversation, OK.  If sharing from the teacher's chair, then it should be something you can share with everyone. And yes I mentioned this to Bob].

I have been given the lowdown by two sources that seem to agree on the content. And that personal impressions were given and may not be on the podcast.

So I guess I don't need to listen to the Sunday School myself anymore because I have trustworthy people relaying the information to me secondhand. That's a load off my mind.  (update 6-14-08: this is a comment not on Bob's choice to keep this info back, but Chris's refusal to release the recording of the meeting... if someone tells me what happened, then I should not worry about hearing the original source material, right?)

Being handed a canned version of events when the real version is available (original source material) is kind of like the mainstream media's attempt at sanitizing the news to give you their slant.

I feel condescended to.
*****************
original post follows:
*****************
I was disturbed by the tone of Chris R's 'thank you' to Rick Warren. 

I am not surprised by any of the reports. We all knew Rick would be nice and *seem* genuinely interested in their point of view. That is easily explained as something like diaprax/delphi method at work. [CORRECTION/CLARIFICATION 6-14-08:  This is unclear the way I have phrased it here.  The intention is to describe WHY Rick Warren is doing all this, and why he is so gracious and hospitable -- because he is constantly employing this technique.  It is not a comment on whether or not it worked on Chris or Bob.]

But I still think people need to hear the audio and that it isn't right to keep it secret. Pretty sure Chris said that both were given recordings.  [6-14-08: In any case, Chris was]

In suggesting that the audio should be made public to keep everyone accountable, I wasn't suggesting that either Bob or Chris might be swayed by Rick Warren. HOWEVER procedurally and for accountability reasons for all three (RW, Bob, Chris) it should be made public.

and because this isn't a Matt 18 issue. And because they were ostensibly representing so many saints who have been harmed by his teachings and abused at the hands of false undershepherds in the name of Purpose, those saints deserve to be able to verify what was said on their behalf and what the response was. Including all the nonverbals.

The fact that Chris is OK with saying "trust me" here to a bunch of people who've been burned by that before is insensitive.

I don't doubt Bob is being truthful (in his report to his church) and complete about what transpired.

However, I also want to hear the things that Bob cannot relay third person. Tone of voice, inflection, pregnant pauses, etc. those things that betray a hidden agenda. (by RW obviously)

I have also been in SO many meetings where men I care about totally MISS the loopholes and red flags that are put out verbally and left wide open by the 'opposing' party, and even when I point out "did you hear when he said that? don't you realize he means THIS and this will come back to bite you?" they don't get it.. they say 'well so& so isn't that way he wouldn't do that, we trust him!" until it comes back to bite them. And often then they forget I even said it would.

I wasn't saying I don't think Bob or Chris is trustworthy. I just think it [6-14-08: Chris releasing the recording] is the right thing to do to maintain openness and transparency. Yes, Bob is wonderfully transparent. (as I gather Chris has been too) So when someone like that decides this time not to be transparent and everyone's OK with it, it bothers me.

If warren repents I'll be content. But I still am discouraged by the attempt to keep the actual recording to themselves. If it's out there then be transparent and let the chips fall. If there is nothing to be afraid of, then out with it.

No sense protecting false teachers like Rick Warren. It smacks of everything I fled.

Pray a little prayer

So what do you do when you gradually begin to realize you have NO idea what your Christian family members actually believe, or Who they actually love? Where their first loyalties lie?

My sister told my mom about my uncle Francis email where I said someone needed to preach the gospel to him and tell him it's not about 'saying a prayer.' (he is dying, he is your typical alcoholic who at one time prayed a 'sinner's prayer' but it 'didn't take.' According to my mom, that's his answer when the pastor tries to talk to him. "Oh I've prayed that prayer" he snaps. WHY in today's day of unprecedented 'success' of the church, does anyone have this misconception about salvation? That it is a 'prayer that you pray' at some point in your life?

I get the impresion her relaying it was similar to her relaying of my concern about the yoga thing (e.g. Paula is so judgemental and the love didn't come across and don't include me in these emails because I'm not interested!) Mom said that "she said you said he was going to hell."

[ASIDE:]  Incidentally my daughter's yoga... I mean P.E. teacher, who went to my husband's high school and is a few years younger than us, has also been trying meditative techniques on the class OTHER than yoga. [END ASIDE]

I said "is there something wrong with that? I didn't, by the way."

She said my sister was going to print one out for her but hasn't yet.

I did at one point say that being saved was more important than family harmony and she agreed but I get the idea my sisters only want enough of Jesus to make their lives comfortable so when I talk about the gospel or about church or Jesus, they kind of tolerate it and roll their eyes. I can't imagine that if I talked about my husband that way that they would have ANY problem with it.

If they love Jesus wouldn't they want to hear about him? Talk about what it means to love him? To be a Christian?

BTW one sister is a homeopath (divination IMO) and the other is caught up in Word Faith error-- she tells me she didn't want our dad's version of Christianity (which was actually closer to the truth) because she found him exasperating. (WELL WE ALL DID! But we ALL agree that we knew he loved us too. So what's the problem?)... Satan is working hard to choke out the seed in both of them.

*****************

Here is what I sent regarding my mom's brother Francis, to which my sister was responding:

*****************
I can't get it off my mind and I'm feeling all choked up even though I haven't ever really known Francis and haven't seen his face since the reunion in 1992. (At least, I think he showed up briefly...)

So I hear Francis' idea of being saved was praying a little prayer? Did someone set him straight on what it really means? Sometimes when people linger on long past when the doctors think they should have passed on, I wonder if God is waiting for someone to go and preach the gospel to them, one more time.

His peevish "I prayed that prayer" sounds to me like his conscience had been bothering him, at least when he was conscious.

Someone should get down there posthaste and correct him. Even if you think he can't hear anymore, we don't know that for sure... and hey, if it's too late, and someone wants to read this at his funeral, feel free... the rest of his family needs to hear it too.

Paula
*********************
Francis if someone told you to pray a little prayer and you'd be saved, they lied. If someone told you to come to Jesus to fix your life, they lied. If someone told you you were OK because you were baptized at some point in life, they lied.

When Jesus was on the cross, two criminals were also crucified. Jesus was guilty of no crime, but these men were being executed for theirs. The first criminal made fun of Christ, saying "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"but the other one said to the first one, "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.

"Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

That second criminal had no time to clean up his life nor did he pray a little magic formula prayer. He was probably never baptized. So why did Jesus promise him he would be saved? Because the second criminal knew he did not deserve to be saved. He deserved his sentence of death. We all do.

Each one of us, no matter how 'good' we think we are, have offended an infintely holy God. His wrath upon each of us is justified, and we deserve no good thing. Still, God shows us his love in that while we were still his enemies, Jesus came and took that wrath FOR YOU, on the cross, voluntarily enduring untold agony and pain. He did not have to do this, but he did it to save those who would believe and put their trust in his mercy. Not those who pray a little prayer. So believe that you deserve a just sentence of God's wrath for eternity, but that Christ averted that wrath by paying the death penalty in your stead. Respond with grief and love for so great a gift, a gift that each one of us has taken for granted and which we never can repay.

What we all must do: No special words but in your heart, Believe in Him, turn to him in sorrow and love, and tell God that he
is right in what he says about you, that you are a sinner, and deserve hell. Trust in his mercy, that he will forgive your sins and have mercy on you. He is the only one that can bring you through death's valley and get you safely to the other side. He came to show us his self sacrificing love so that we CAN trust him. He held nothing back to show us his love.

This was written about Christ, centuries before Christ was born:

Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

8 By oppression [a] and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken. [b]

9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes [c] his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life [d] and be satisfied [e] ;
by his knowledge [f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

June 13, 2008

Todd Bentley's Angel Emma-O

Have any of these Todd Bentley sycophants bothered to look up "emma o"?

Here's a good show from TruNews featuring Rick Wiles (host) and guest Pat Holliday, Ken Silva, and John Sharp:
The Emma O thing was an eye opener to me.  I don't believe angels are given to us to follow us around and communicate with.  They occasionally appeared in Scripture to bring a message, not provide daily direction.  But the name I had never heard before... and apparently Bentley and Bob Jones haven't either, or they might have realized they were being led by Satan.  However I can't say for sure.  When people want anything but the truth, they will remain in denial no matter what evidence is given to them.  Pray the Lord will grant Bentley repentance.


I agree with John Sharp, the appearance is the smallest problem I have with him.  In fact if he had gotten them before becoming a Christian I probably wouldn't think twice.  As John Sharp mentioned, it's the reasons that he got them that are problematic.

God help us, purify Your church!

June 12, 2008

Chris Rosebrough throwing PD refugees under the bus

UPDATE: Mike Corley wrote me back and said he will address some of these things on his show.  I will be looking forward to that.  I appreciate that he listened to my 'complaint.'

***************************
original post:
***************************

Chris Rosebrough spent some time with Mike Corley on his show recently (6-9-08). Here's a quick transcript of a bit that alarms me (there are more parts that alarm me but just this one for now.)

He spent some time complaining about those who expressed their alarm, concern, hurt, and frustration over his (rather over the top IMO) thank you to RW.  If he couldn't take the hyperbole used to express that frustration, he shouldn't have turned around and used it himself by suggesting they were a school of bloodthirsty piranhas that wanted him to slice and dice Rick Warren and feed the pieces to them.  And by saying they 'threw him under the bus.' 

(Never mind that we all kind of felt he threw US under the bus by his PUBLIC building up of RW and what we saw as stroking RW's ego with what looked like a big old public smooch.)

Then went on:
Mike Corley:"has this been a turning point for you Chris? It was for me when I went to this Emergent Conference out in Austin last year...God really convicted me of some of the... posture and approach that I was taking on some things."

Chris: "yeah it really made me take a step back and a hard look at maybe the tone that I had used in the past"

[I cannot think of a place where either Chris or Mike have been TOO HARSH to EMERGENT or RW!]

Chris: "And my concern is that I've played in and I've participated in something that doesn't honor Christ...even though I was defending the gospel and I think there was a group of people who follow my blogs who their expectation of me is that I would slice and dice rick warren up...and feed it to them as if they were little piranhas or something"

mike: "me too me too...I had one person who called me and I appreciate the fact that he had the courage to call me, most people don't want to talk to me directly... and I said 'what did you want me to do?...Fly out to seattle and punch mark driscoll in the mouth, say God bless you, and leave?"

hmm... talk about a little false dichotomy there. They are using fallacious argumentation like the RW defenders and those who try to take Ken Silva apart every day over at CRN(mis)info. That is not very becoming.  Does Mike mean to suggest that there is no middle ground between praising and being violent toward someone? (BTW I agree with him that there is hope for Driscoll, but I also understand the major problems people have with him.)  Is there any graciousness extended toward those discernment ministries and bloggers who stand for the truth but maybe take a tone that Mike Corley and Chris Rosebrough find a little 'too strong?  Or is that all reserved for hospitable false teachers?

Is anyone familiar with the saying "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer?"  That is a worldly saying of course, not the way the church is to operate, and it is exactly what Rick Warren appears to be doing.

I had over the last few weeks, been able to put aside Chris's original insult to the bride of Christ who has been abused in the name of purpose, by his rather fawning thank you to one of her largest abusers, Rick Warren, and then by his misuse of Matt 18 which we PD resisters have ALL had used against us constantly in exactly the same way.  Is there any wonder that we are upset?

Some thoughts, which I also sent along to Mike Corley:
I am surprised you and Chris spent 20 minutes on how 'badly' Chris was treated after coming back from the RW meeting.

Thrown under the bus? I thought he was far more than just 'gracious' to Rick... it sounded more like fawning. If your wife, for example, had been abused by someone as a child, would you publish a public thank you for him just being nice to you? right in front of your wife? Those of us who have been dragged behind the purpose driven horse, frankly, feel like Chris was the one doing the throwing under the bus. His post actually made me weep. I spent many days just being overcome with tears because he has in effect told us our anger and hurt over RW is unwarranted and that HE (Chris, and you too by your agreement with him in this discussion) is bigger and better at it, more mature, more sanctified, than we are. I had finally gotten over my grief over the issue because Chris was writing some very good critiques again. And now this program has reopened the wound for me. My heart literally breaks over the burden RW places on true believers who are too naive to understand why his teaching is false. And I feel like Chris by his chastising those of us who love those brethren and want to defend them, has totally trivialized that. 

There was a good sermon played on WayOfTheMaster today, by Piper. Piper talks about Love -- and if you do not HATE you cannot truly LOVE. If you LOVE someone, then you HATE all that brings that person harm. (played on the June 11 hour 1 show,
toward the end).

What should our tone be? I dunno. There's a difference between those who reject the faith and those who claim the name of Christ and pervert the gospel and oppress, neglect, ostracize, and make merchandise of the brethren in the name of Christ. Some phrases come to mind which I would like resolved with the 'gentleness and respect' idea:

"vipers, whitewashed tombs full of dead men's bones," and things like "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God." and "I wish they would go all the way and emasculate themselves" and "do not even bid him godspeed, for to do so makes you a partaker in his evil deeds"

None of us wanted Chris to slice and dice Rick Warren. We just didn't want him to stroke his ego and publicly build him up, since he is a false teacher who teaches untold numbers of pastors that those who want the truth are 'blessed subtractions.'

If Chris wants us to know how to correct people in error with graciousness and respect, he should release the audio.

It sounds like Rick Warren has succeeded in his goal of causing division in the discernment community.  Now anyone who disagrees with Chris on his handling of this (I have NO ARGUMENT with his doctrinal positions or doctrinal critiques of Warren, as they are excellent as usual, but I also HAD no problem with his tone.  If anything he and Mike Corley have been most gracious toward their opposition and needed no further 'softening' as they seem to have decided in the conversation I transcribed above.  Chris mentioned the ongoing 'dialogue,' 'discussion', and 'conversation' that is continuing between him and Rick Warren's Chief of Staff. Well maybe Chris just hasn't beat his head against that wall long enough yet to see the futility.  It almost sounds like he's bought the idea that if we are 'nice enough' and make them like us they'll like what we have to say.  It's one of Rick's favorite lines. 

Chris ended by saying he was going to take a hiatus from Alittleleaven and rework the 'tone' there as well.

I'm still waiting for the public thank-you, and articles of 'gentleness and respect' to President Kieschnick of the LCMS.  (Frankly if Chris takes that sentence seriously, then I know he's drunk a little too much kool-aid.)

June 10, 2008

Assuming the Gospel


The White Horse Inn had an EXCELLENT audio program this past week (6-8-08).  It was entitled "Assuming the Gospel." For a time you can listen to it at the White Horse Inn's OnePlace page but it will eventually move down the list and be unavailable.

Chris Rosebrough and Richard Abanes were going around on Chris's blog regarding the law and the law preaching of Rick Warren.  Abanes just wasn't getting Rosebrough's point (no surprise there) that 'how to' sermons are LAW and all of us, saved and unsaved alike, need the GOSPEL.  And the more detail, the better, and more powerful the impact.

Chris also continues his train of thought regarding Rick Warren's preaching of LAW and not Gospel here:


When Jason wrote up his papers delineating our issues with Oak Heights Covenant church (where he was the volunteer music director at the time, 2005, having joined in 1999) and the Purpose Driven Life/Purpose Driven Church being promoted there (as well as the entire Covenant denomination and all the additional error flooding in to the rest of the denomination), this was one of the points he made.  Sure, some of us will be fine for a while assuming the gospel.  But the next 'generation' of church attenders will not be.  You cannot assume they know.

I read John Macarthur's "Ashamed of the Gospel" during the ordeal at that church... and I always describe its impact as like the Maxell ad with the guy sitting in front of his TV or stereo with his hair, tie, and clothes being blown back like he's in a wind tunnel.  It reminded me of that which had for too long been assumed in my circle of friends.  It went down like cold clear water in a desert, but my lips and throat had become so parched and cracked that it stung to drink.   But in a sense it was a good hurt.  I was regularly moved to tears to actually be hearing about my precious Savior again so clearly.  Then I knew what I had been missing for so long.

Another place I found that good gospel preaching was Twin City Fellowship with Bob DeWaay and Ryan Habbena.  Two wonderful and unpretentious men of God in the Minneapolis area, who make their teaching freely available and have a great burden for the sheep of God's flock who are being neglected by the hirelings that were put in charge of their local church.
Ezekiel 34:1-6 ESV
1"The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel; prophesy, and say to them, even to the shepherds, Thus says the Lord GOD: Ah, shepherds of Israel who have been feeding yourselves! Should not shepherds feed the sheep? 
3 You eat the fat, you clothe yourselves with the wool, you slaughter the fat ones, but you do not feed the sheep. 4 The weak you have not strengthened, the sick you have not healed, the injured you have not bound up, the strayed you have not brought back, the lost you have not sought, and with force and harshness you have ruled them. 
5 So they were scattered, because there was no shepherd, and they became food for all the wild beasts. 6My sheep were scattered; they wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. My sheep were scattered over all the face of the earth, with none to search or seek for them."
The next thought was that everyone else was ALSO missing it!   And that was NOT a good hurt. The thought that others could be going through the same killing hunger that I had been was unbearable as well.  The fact that the GOSPEL itself had been missing for so long was unconscionable.  And our pastor was deliberately (for his own reasons, which he thought were noble) denying it to the flock.  This realization really knocked me off balance for quite a while.  It was the first time I had ever confronted this type of reality -- when someone you loved, respected, and wanted to support  (possibly having put that person a little too high on a pedestal)  suddenly has their true colors revealed and you realize they are not what you thought, and the most important thing you thought you shared was all an illusion.  

... and the rest of that saga can be read here on the blog in those LOOOONG running total type records of correspondence that went on during that time.

Part 1 of Our Story -- How We Were Purpose Driven Out Of Our Church

There are six parts and a kind of epilogue, all linked at the bottom of that page and each of those pages also.  But it is really long.  I left all the correspondence in for reasons of authenticity.  I did not feel like going through and weeding out places where I look bad, because that would be disingenuous, and I put it up in the first place so that people will know that they are not the only ones with these extreme roller coaster of emotions over this issue.

Maybe someday I'll try to write up a summary form.   Someday...

But in any case, again with the White Horse Inn episode on Assuming The Gospel, I am reminded of how precious the true Gospel is, and how void and useless any ministry is that does not promiscuously preach it at every opportunity.  For it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes!

Some of my favorite messages from Bob DeWaay:



2Thessalonians 2:8-12 The Truth of the Gospel or the Delusion of the Lie
mp3 Audio


Ezekiel 34 continuing with verse 7:
7"Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD: 8 As I live, declares the Lord GOD, surely because my sheep have become a prey, and my sheep have become food for all the wild beasts, since there was no shepherd, and because my shepherds have not searched for my sheep, but the shepherds have fed themselves, and have not fed my sheep, 9therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD: 10Thus says the Lord GOD, Behold, I am against the shepherds, and I will require my sheep at their hand and put a stop to their feeding the sheep.No longer shall the shepherds feed themselves. I will rescue my sheep from their mouths, that they may not be food for them.

11"For thus says the Lord GOD:  Behold, I, I myself will search for my sheep and will seek them out. 12As a shepherd seeks out his flock when he is among his sheep that have been scattered, so will I seek out my sheep, and I will rescue them from all places where they have been scattered on a day of clouds and thick darkness. 13And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them into their own land. And I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the ravines, and in all the inhabited places of the country. 14 I will feed them with good pasture, and on the mountain heights of Israel shall be their grazing land. There they shall lie down in good grazing land, and on rich pasture they shall feed on the mountains of Israel. 15 I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep, and I myself will make them lie down, declares the Lord GOD. 16 I will seek the lost, and I will bring back the strayed, and I will bind up the injured, and I will strengthen the weak, and the fat and the strong I will destroy. I will feed them in justice.

17"As for you, my flock, thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I judge between sheep and sheep, between rams and male goats. 18Is it not enough for you to feed on the good pasture, that you must tread down with your feet the rest of your pasture; and to drink of clear water, that you must muddy the rest of the water with your feet? 19And must my sheep eat what you have trodden with your feet, and drink what you have muddied with your feet?

20"Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD to them: Behold, I, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. 21Because you push with side and shoulder, and thrust at all the weak with your horns, till you have scattered them abroad, 22I will rescue my flock; they shall no longer be a prey. And I will judge between sheep and sheep. 23And I will set up over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he shall feed them: he shall feed them and be their shepherd. 24And I, the LORD, will be their God, and my servant David shall be prince among them. I am the LORD; I have spoken.

June 5, 2008

Pastor John Tolly, purpose driven

Pastor John Tolly is looking to leave Mitchell SD.

He was issued a call and turned it down.  But he has been 'so thankful' that the church he has been candidating with has kept it 'confidential.'

I dunno... why is this 'sneaky' approach so commonplace these days?  Could it be because there is a plethora of problem pastors looking to escape the mess they made with the Purpose-Driven or Willow Creek approach?

Listen to Pastor Tolly's vision casting let's adore the church sermon here:


The date is May 25, 2008.  I'm sure it will go out of rotation soon, if so I'll make sure I capture it for posterity, at least to have a shining example of what kind of sermon indicates trouble.

If you look at his home Northridge Baptist Church in Mitchell SD you will see Willow Creek and Celebrate Recovery promoted.

The church has a purpose statement with five purposes:  Worship, Share, Grow, Connect (fellowship), Serve.  Hmm where have I read those before?


Their Links page has a spiritual gifts questionnaire that looks suspiciously like the one we got at Oak Heights from Willow Creek. (although this particular group slaps their own name on it).  That same ministry promotes church growth philosophy as well, with resources from Win Arn, Donald McGavran, etc.

Someone's not exercising a lot of discernment...

thank you pastor bob!

It seems Abanes' fawning and salivating over Bob and Chris's 'nice' approach has caused Bob to take a harder line. His latest statements have been very hard hitting and I really appreciate them!

The original statement
At the beginning of our meeting Rick asked us to share our stories with him. Both of us had come out of bad doctrine and faulty movements to become gospel centric. I shared my experience of learning church growth theory at seminary and showed him a first edition copy of his book The Purpose Driven Church that was required reading for me in 1996. I also shared how discouraging church growth teaching was as our inner city church was shrinking. I shared how I found hope and inspiration from John MacArthur and that I chose his ministry model rather than church growth theory.

We both urged him to start preaching Christ and I shared with him how I preach Christ to illustrate that. Chris Rosebrough was outstanding and told him that after listening to all his messages that he is preaching law but not gospel. He told Rick that he was putting people under a load of guilt (by telling them to do this and do that) but giving them no answer as far as forgiveness of sins.

We pleaded with him concerning sola scriptura, and were able to freely share our concerns. I gave him my book and the Berean’s discernment tool. I told him why I disagreed with his ministry philosophy. I also told him that his 'reformation' is based on general revelation rather than Scripture. He was very cordial and listened to all we had to say. He claims to agree with our basic beliefs as far as theology goes.

Rick took my book and the other material. I do not know if he is going to do anything about it, but at least he listened. We will see if he begins to preach Christ.

Concerning the abuse that Purpose Driven pastors have done, that he would not own. He claims that Luther is not responsible for everything done in the name of Luther and that Reformed people are not responsible for everything done in the name of Calvin, and he likewise is not responsible for things done in his name. We got nowhere with that part of the conversation. (I do not agree with his analogy but that is another matter).

We also have access to his executive pastor and plan to use it to continue to plead for gospel preaching in the church.

I would say that what good we did will not be known until we see if Warren starts preaching Christ according to the terms of the New Testament. For now, we are praying for that he will.

We were treated very well by everyone there and have no complaints about that.

He did nothing to try to get us to join his movement. He seemed most interested in why it was we felt the need to publicly oppose him.

Bob

the original discussion
2008-05-25 - 2Corinthians 7:6,7
mp3 Audio

updated statement:
Bob Dewaay wrote

I wrote my book, Redefining Christianity, assuming that Rick Warren actually believes the Saddleback Church’s statement of faith, but that he refuses to preach it because he wants to be popular with the world and grow his movement. I still think that could still be true—I give him the benefit of the doubt.

At the Saddleback Church conference he was speaking of winning souls for Christ and talking about his father’s legacy of building churches and winning souls. More than likely he believes Baptist doctrine. But along the way he was derailed by reading the church growth theory of Donald McGavran. While in seminary I studied under a disciple of McGavran. McGavran’s book was required reading. His philosophy hinges on this idea: “people do not become Christian for theological reasons, but for sociological ones.”

Rick Warren believed McGavran and set out to study people to find out what makes them tick so he could get them into church — thus “Saddleback Sam.” Purpose Driven is a franchise system to multiply this idea into other churches. Warren tells pastors that they do not have to change any doctrine to join his movement. The reason for that is that doctrine becomes unimportant because it is no longer taught. I don’t think Rick Warren changed his Baptist doctrine either; he just doesn’t allow it to determine what he teaches and what he does. When we met that is what I challenged him about.

So I have not moved in my beliefs nor have I changed my position on any doctrines I have preached.

I will not allow myself to be pitted against any of Warren’s critics. I read Warren Smith’s book and spoke with him on the phone. He is a wonderful brother. The New Age implications are in Rick Warren’s movement and are helping lead toward a One World church. But because he has publicly made statements besides his statement of faith that he believes there is a literal hell and that people without Christ will go there, I don’t believe Rick Warren is a true New Age believer, and neither does Warren Smith. Warren Smith simply says there are New Age implications to what Rick Warren is doing, and I agree with him.

Tomorrow morning I will make a statement clarifying what I mean when I said that we did not have theological disagreements in our meeting. Rick Warren did not disagree with my positions on doctrine in our meeting. But he did not comment on everything I said. Please read my book, because in it I point out that Rick Warren privately affirms orthodox Christian theology—he did so again in our presence. So this is not news worthy.

To set the record straight, for those who think I am suddenly okay with Rick Warren – I am not. I asked him to preach Christ and honor the idea of scripture alone – and I pointed out that he cannot have a “reformation” based on general revelation.

These are huge issues and he did not say he was going to change anything—but he did not disagree. Do Warren’s supporters really think that having an orthodox theology in private is all that God expects of a preacher? Do they think we should not hold Rick Warren accountable to sola scriptura? Do they think that we can have any old ministry philosophy even if doing so totally changes the definition of the church and her message from how the Bible defines them?

I challenge Rick Warren’s supporters to step up to the plate and demand that Rick Warren repent, as I requested him to do in my book. That statement is posted at http://www.twincityfellowship.com/special/appeal.pdf Otherwise they have no business claiming that I agree with them.

Bob DeWaay

2008-06-01 - Pastor Bob's Response to Meeting with Rick Warren
mp3 Audio

Bob's Christian Worldview Network updated report