March 29, 2008
THis was a great interview.
The original article she wrote is here
or here when that passes into the archives:
March 24, 2008
Is the LCMS Being "Transitioned" into a Seeker-Sensitive Denomination?
After reading these article please listen to Dr. Kieschnick's interview on KFUO's Morning Show which aired THE SAME day that Issues Etc. was cancelled. It was NOT a coincidence that Issues was cancelled the exact same day that Kieschnick re-cast his Vision for the church and called for the LCMS to "change its methods without compromising it's message. (that is Rick Warren speak).Please read more of Chris's post here:
March 23, 2008
Pastor Jim Johnson of Good Shepherd (Free Lutheran) Church in Camarillo CA seems to have missed most of the good teaching at the AFLC. At least, we hope there was still good teaching there and he just missed it.
Also read their FAQ page, it reads like PDC.
Aims and Goals of Good Shepherd (Free Lutheran) Church
Aims and Goals of Good Shepherd Church…As far as I remember from my instruction in Luther's Small Catechism, it is the Holy Spirit which calls a person to faith in Christ, which draws a person... not other human beings. Not that we should not be kind and loving as Christ has commanded. But that is not what purpose driven seeker sensitive church methodology means.
Good Shepherd doesn’t want to be just another Lutheran church. We want to thrive and grow and point people to the hope found in Jesus Christ. What are we really aiming for? The following goals describe what we’re trying to do:
1. Attracting: We hope to partner with other living churches to point people to Jesus Christ. That means intentionally opening our arms to new friends and believer wherever they are on their spiritual journey.
Teaching people to look at US for their attraction to Christ is exactly what Seeker Sensitive and Purpose Driven is all about. ("They Like Jesus But Not the Church" or "if they like us they'll like Jesus too") It has man and man's behavior at the center of everything, rather than WDJD? What DID JESUS Do? The end result is a form of moralism which is antithetical to the teachings of the Reformers and more in line with Catholicism and the Emergent Church.
3. Teaching: We love the Bible and want to know it better. Come and learn with us!I'm not sure I'd trust the teaching from what I've heard so far. Man centered teaching and preaching about children's books and dumbing down the gospel into "Jesus can give you stilts" is not good teaching. Focusing on the benefits of Salvation seems to be primary here, whereas the TRUTH of what was done for our salvation and the command to BELIEVE THE FACTS of it is what evangelism really is.
4. Serving: We’re a purpose-driven church! We’re here for a reason – to care about people and the community of Camarillo. We’re not here just to watch. Want to serve with us? As a new gathering, we are focusing on four primary tasks at the start. Good Shepherd Church promotes…(emphasis added)
Jim, if you want the church to grow, drop the purpose-driven. For a journalist you should be able to be researching what is going on in the church at large and should be savvy enough to get the FACTS whereby you would know that people who want the truth of Scripture are fleeing Purpose Driven churches like the plague, and for good reason. Don't kid yourself, pastors, that you can mix a little of this error in with your good doctrine and think it will be OK.
Grace for the broken (You don’t have to be perfect to be here!)You know I'm getting really tired of this "no perfect people" false dichotomy, such as is illustrated in this lame video:
No Perfect People Allowed
In fact, purpose driven have grace almost solely for those who are immature, and none for those who would warn the church about the danger of error being brought into the church by the immature which is often the pastor and/or the lay leadership these days. Case in point is pastor Kieschnick of the LCMS who seems to have been a nice enough guy to get promoted to his position of leadership. Now those who didn't speak up against his seeming 'small' error are seeing it divide the entire denomination and also watching it result in the abuse of faithful undershepherds who would guard the flock from wolves in sheep's clothing.
We’re not the only church in Camarillo doing that. But we want to be among the many churches here that are building believers and drawing new friends into the family. Thanks for praying with us.You may want to rethink the paragraph that says "we don't want to be just another Lutheran Church" (is there something wrong with that?). Because what you're aiming for is being "just another purpose driven man-centered new evangelical" church. A dime a dozen. Church in a box. McChurch. Good nutrition. Super Size me. This paragraph seems to severely downplay the importance of our Lutheran distinctives. Then why are they in the AFLC anyway? They took "Lutheran" out of their name in places already.
This page has a sermon I'm listening to right now called "The King's Stilts" - it seems VERY MAN CENTERED. He spends an inordinate amount of time talking about Dr Seuss and children's books.
Good Shepherd (Free Lutheran) Church sermons
(note added 6-30-2014 - the sermon has been taken down, probably when they redid their site, but we had saved a copy and have reuploaded it and link to it here)
A fulfilled life? Really, Jim? So are you also promoting a version of the self-fulfillment Gospel along with the likes of Joel Osteen? What do we tell former Muslims whose families issue a death warrant upon their conversion to Christ? This is fulfillment? Christians never suffer disillusionment, disappointment, depression? This is no less than the Word Faith/prosperity heresy, in a subtler fom. A theology of Glory, not a theology of the cross. Of course, that's part and parcel of the false doctrine of pragmatism which Johnson seems to have adopted along with Rick Warren's Purpose Driven apostasy. The Bible says be sober minded, it is not concerned about us being happy or playful or even having recreational time. Though these are not bad in themselves, these are man's ways of 'renewing strength' - they are very common sense and there is nothing wrong with playing. But it is NOT in Scripture! It is not promised to us in the gospel as a part of the Christian life.
He calls the spiritual gifts "stilts" that God gives us when we're saved.. and of course in the story the stilts, being a recreational activity, are what keep the king happy when he works... instead of working all the time and never having fun.
Jim, those with the gift/stilt of prophecy and discernment are sounding the alarm on Purpose Driven, why aren't you listening? You say in your "King's Stilts" sermon that we NEED these people for direction. Listen to them. Even if the Leadership of the AFLC holds its doctrine of 'congregationalism' closer to its heart than Scriptural truth, or than the command to name the names of false teachers, you can still do your own research and realize just how dangerous a game you are playing with Christ's flock.
(note - some edits for flow and clarification added 6-30-2014)
March 22, 2008
But wait... here are the terms:
Now Pr. Wilken and Mr. Schwarz are without means – salary and benefits – to provide for their families. Not only that, but the Schwarz family has an especially unique need as Jeff’s wife, Beth, suffers from a nerve disorder, and is in the process of getting into the Mayo Clinic to see what can be done. A standard severance package has been offered to both Wilken and Schwarz, but it comes with the string of a “gag order” attached. (That is, they are being asked to sign a document stating that they will not discuss the conditions of their termination of employment.) The Issues, Etc. team is seeking legal counsel before they accept the conditional severance package.This cannot possibly be ethical.
Hm.. Can Jeff accept the severance and so receive help for his wife, and Todd not accept it (not that Todd's family couldn't benefit from the temporary assistance)... I have to wonder what their response would be. Would BOTH have to agree before either one can get assistance?
As the comments on the linked article say, Kieschnick has NO problem intervening and blocking things he disagrees with. The same behavior went on with Todd Ertsgaard at our ex church. He turned us over to the Executive Committee and suggested that it was 'out of his hands' -- however when committees came up with resolutions he didn't agree with, he had NO problem stepping in and undermining them, blocking them, even UNASKING people who had agreed to run for church chair -- once directly and the second time (same person!) they did it by saying that because the current chair (who was involved in kicking my husband and me out) had 'agreed to serve again' they weren't going to entertain any further nominations. This was contrary to the guidelines/policy that the nominating committee had spend much time and energy coming up with in order to be above board.
Well, whenever we don't want to follow them, we call them 'guidelines' and whenever we insist someone else follow them, they are 'official policy.'
Sadly, though many were concerned about this power grab, hardly anyone actually did anything about it.
Let's hope the people in the LCMS have more character.
March 20, 2008
David Strand responded tonight:
Thank you for your e-mail. We are sorry for your disappointment over the change in KFUO-AM programming. However, we hope you will enjoy our future programs.
Sincerely in Christ,
David L. Strand
Board for Communication Services
The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod
The email indicates it is only for me and I am not allowed to disclose the contents to anyone else. OH WELL. It's not as if they are worried about following ethical guidelines. This falsehood needs to be exposed. There's certainly nothing to be 'ashamed' of or anything of a personal nature in his reply either.
That was the lamest non response I've ever heard. Almost as lame as the explanation you posted online. "programmatic" such as "Todd and Jeff wouldn't get with the seeker-sensitive agenda we are pushing."
The LCMS is in the process of pushing that lampstand out the door and you are cooperating with it. I am glad I did not commit to join an LCMS church now, knowing what is going on and the schism which is about to happen. You just poured gasoline on a fire with this decision and have put Jesus out of the camp. That's fine, we will go out with him. But what you will have left will not be his church.
So often I run into sincere mistaken Christians who admonish me to be less sure of what I see, because I am prone to error just like them.
I know that if people do not consciously guard against the error...
I am currently attending an AFLC church (www.aflc.org). (Association of Free Lutheran Congregations) I had written to the leadership a few years ago to ask if there were plans to take a formal stand against this error. I was informed that they probably would not, because of their commitment to ‘congregationalism.’ However I would argue that this is every bit as important as their recent binding resolution to require every pastor to believe in a literal 6 day creation. Every bit. If the AFLC does not take a stand against this, it WILL destroy them as well.
March 19, 2008
One correction - I accidentally posted that our previous church was Evangelical Free -- whoops no, wasn't thinking. Evangelical Covenant. But the E Free is also a tossup whether you will get a good one or one that has gone down the Purpose Driven Primrose Path.
This is my take:
Issues, Etc has been abruptly cancelled.
When a few years ago I became aware of the purpose driven fraud being perpetrated on the evangelical church at large I remember talking to an LCMS member who had just fought long and hard to have a purpose driven pastor removed from their church in California. This person seemed to think the leadership (the LCMS president in particular) was trying to push church growth on the denomination. I don't know how credible that is but if it is true, it would make more sense of why they don't want a discernment ministry being so popular.
I also noticed an ad for "Contemplate" -- a seminar for pastor and deaconness "formation" -- I wrote to express my concern that the LCMS is borrowing New Age spiritual terminology. I think there is trouble brewing and it is not the fault of Todd Wilken and Jeff Schwarz. It is the fault of the leadership who are intolerant of Biblical teaching and the exercise of discernment.
I was purpose driven from my Evangelical Free Church about 3 years ago. I could not bring myself to go to an LCMS church because of this very kind of thing that I heard was brewing in the leadership... embracing the very apostasy I fled. Issues Etc gave me great hope for the LCMS and was a great source of encouragement for me and my family. I am so grieved that the leadership of the Synod thumbs their nose at God when he blesses them with good true pastors like Todd and Jeff and those good pastors who help support the show.
I really appreciate their making known the popular heresies parading around out there in the name of Christ. Without people like Todd I would still be depressed and oppressed by a legalistic church, and unable to appreciate the freedom for which Christ has set us free.
Issues, Etc has been abruptly cancelled.
When a few years ago I became aware of the purpose driven fraud being perpetrated on the evangelical church at large I remember talking to an LCMS member who had just fought long and hard to have a purpose driven pastor removed from their church in California. This person said that in the process of going through all this they realized the leadership (the LCMS president in particular) was trying to push church growth on the denomination. I don't know how credible that is but if it is true, it would make more sense of why they don't want a discernment ministry being so popular.
I also noticed an ad for "Contemplate" -- a seminar for pastor and deaconness "formation" -- I wrote to express my concern that the LCMS is borrowing New Age spiritual terminology. I think there is trouble brewing in the LCMS and has been for a while. Perhaps this will alert people to the problems in leadership.
Chaz Lehmann blogs about it
Issues Etc disappears
James White comments on it
Ingrid Schlueter blog entry on it
Blog created for bringing back Issues Etc
Mike Ratliff sounds off:
March 14, 2008
"Show me your faith, and I'll show you my faith through my works.
The implied point of that statement by James points out that...you really cannot show faith. Faith is utterly internal, private. Only through action outside yourself can you demonstrate that faith.
Warren is attempting to wed both the protestant internal faith element with the high church emphasis on good works. One is supposed to be an outgrowth of the other.
Is this the heresy of which you speak?"
That's a fairly good general summation, yes.
Thank you for the blog link. Youtube limits on replies prevent me from giving a more comprehensive reply.
I'm tempted to post a reply on my blog, but don't know that I want to invite your ridicule or some god-awful war of words between my ambiguity and your ABSOLUTIST CERTAINTY that you are 100% right, 100% of the time.
Suffice it to say that if you are the person I believe you are (via goggling your profile name), you appear to have significant credentials on hermeneutics and theology. Be that as it may, I still believe you mistake faith and patriotism, blending two elements that diminish the purity of the faith, and do nothing much for the politics side of the equation, either. As such, it would stand to reason you'd throw plenty of vinegar at Rick Warren for, yes....practicing a more loving, conciliatory approach to non believers. It would fly right in the face of your World Net Daily, Free Republic, Fox News inspired political beliefs. Though it would align with scripture.
I dunno that I have significant credentials. I just want truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. If the truth is what sets free, if Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, why wouldn't I want truth at all costs?
I really don't have any idea where you get that I worship America. I don't believe America is God's chosen people or anything of the sort. I do think that American principles (which we seem to be abandoning more and more) are good ones. And I do think that we should defend our country from terrorism. I do think that most of our men in uniform are 'good' guys. (not the Biblical definition of good of course, which is only applicable to God alone). I think they are sorely mistreated by beauraucrats in Washington and it makes their very difficult job even more so.
Yes I am on Freerepublic, you're welcome to try and post there. I don't know how long you'd last, but hey, worth a try. They used to come down pretty hard on those of us that 'diss' Rick Warren, but they are starting to realize that he's not as conservative as he says. So now they tolerate us.
I don't like Fox News anymore either. Getting a little pragmatic and fluffy for me. And boy do they love to promote the feelgood religion such as Rick Warren. In fact I don't watch much TV at all and don't listen to much talk radio like I used to. I prefer Way of the Master, Issues Etc, White Horse Inn, Dividing Line, and other Christian podcasts.
I am tired of hearing people saying we should vote strategically along party lines (e.g. mcCain is better than Hillary or Obama, which I agree with, but he also has supported a lot of stuff I disagree with, for which I am not going to compromise anymore). Hence the Republican party isn't going to get my support anymore. The pragmatists will tell me I'm throwing the election to the opposition. I say what's the difference anymore?
I prefer the Constitution party, but alas, it's still pretty small. Oh well. It's not going to grow if everyone says "it's too small so I won't support it." That's follower mentality. "I'm not going to do anything until enough people are going along so that it makes it more comfortable for me."
At some point you have to realize, as Reagan did that your party has abandoned you, and its principles.
I really feel that America is heading for judgement, but I also see most countries that are worse off. Once America falls (internally or externally), I'm pretty sure a lot of chaos will result worldwide, as Revelation predicts.
I pray you will have assurance. I wouldn't believe what I believe if I didn't think it was right... I don't know how can change that. I do revise my beliefs in the face of new information, and always have. It's not a comfortable process. Coming to the realization that Romans 9 really means God has a purpose in even the bad things that happen, that he has elected some for salvation and left others to their own devices that he might display his righteous wrath. That was not a comfortable position either... and yet all I can do is simply believe that the Scriptures mean what they say, and that it is good.
As far as being certain, let me tell you something -- I totaled my truck on March 1st and, if things had happened just a little differently, could have killed the two people in the other car...plus could have seriously injured my 8 yr old son who was in the back seat of our truck... all because I was distracted and missed a 4 way stop on a rural highway. I don't know how I missed it. I felt awful, utterly miserable, for at least five days, waiting to find out about the other two people. While filling out the paperwork later in the week, I realized their injury codes were C (same as my son's) - possible injury, and B, non-incapacitating injury. During that time I really questioned a lot of things... was I really ready to die (I sure could have if I hadn't noticed what I was doing and had no time to brake)? Do I really have any fruit of the Spirit which I can point to to give myself assurance of salvation? Once the intense emotion wears off, I feel better, and don't feel so doubtful. And then that made me question too, because I felt so shallow.
Then I realized that the more I look at myself and my feelings for assurance, the worse off I was going to be. It's not me, but Christ, who I should look to.
The ones who pointed out their works were told "I never knew you." This seems consistent with the fact that "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." Philippians 2:13. Like a child who is unaware that he is growing, and has little control over it, except to be nourished with healthy food (in this case, good teaching) and have that growth have its natural result.
When I was struggling with the falsehood that was going on in my church, I felt completely alone. People with blogs like mine were literally a drink of cool water in a desert to someone who was ostracized and publicly humiliated in front of a group of people that professed for 6 years to love me as a church member. (I'm sure many stlll do, but are really confused about how that is supposed to be shown Biblically). So I knew that when I found the truth that was so refreshing and helped me to make sense of betrayal, lying, abandonment, etc and to realize I was NOT alone, I knew that I had to do my small part to help add to the voices who are calling to the thirsty, lonely, hurting, betrayed Christians in the world to come and drink freely of the water of life I (and many others) have found.
I just wanna say that because you are unsure doesnt mean that everyone else must be unsure. We all have times of doubt and struggle, but to consider 'not knowing' to be a virtue, especially when the Bible is clear as can be on a subject, is in reality, not trusting God, disguised as a false humility. I used to believe that it was true humility too.
thanks for putting up with my blather... :-)
March 11, 2008
He also posted a video response to it:
Since you've turned off comments, I wanted to ask what, exactly is your issue with Rick Warren that prompted you to "expose" him in this video?I replied simply:
He preaches a false gospel. All his 'good works' are worthless without the true gospel.But I suppose a little more answering specifics is in order. Since this could eat up HUGE amounts of time, I do not have comments enabled here or on my youtube videos.
You assume I have no idea what I'm doing. What I am doing is exposing the fact that there are wolves in the sheepfold, like Osteen, Warren, Hybels, Mclaren, Pagitt and a myriad others who are compromising the precious message of our Savior which alone is powerful to save.
We are not called to sacrifice truth on the altar of Unity. Without truth, we can only be unified in sin.
Is it his acknowledgment that we must treat with respect those we totally disagree with, i.e., those who disagree with our Bible or believe differently? That every creation of God deserves dignity?
Oh yes, we who regard as anathema Rick Warren's false teaching, it's the loving our neighbor that we have issue with... riiiiiight. (a little sarcasm there). By the way, the Lord himself created some vessels for honor and some for dishonor, says Romans 9. Now I have no idea which are which, so I am commanded to love other human beings and help them in the name of Christ. But if I do not give them the truth of the Gospel, (including our complete inability to save ourselves from God's righteous wrath against our sinfulness, and our need to repent of our sins, and submit to Christ's Lordship lest we suffer an eternity in the torment of hell, separated from God,) well, I'm just giving them a more comfortable ride on the highway to hell. I mean, that's OK as long as I have presented the Gospel and they have rejected it. I can still treat them lovingly. But if I have not fulfilled my primary mission, as a witness to the TRUTH, (not a social justice warrior) then that only testifies that my God, and my Jesus, is not the real one either.
Another straw man:
Or is it that he will even be seen publicly with these "others", these publicans and tax collectors?I think you have me mixed up with Shirley Phelps-Roper ... and/or her daddy. If the only way to be nice is to avoid talking about the Truth of God, his righteous judgement, repentance, sin, and Christ's deity, Christ's sacrifice of himself on our behalf to save us from God's wrath, then yes. Being nice then would be compromising one's convictions. And Rick Warren fumbles the ball every time he's on and is asked about these issues. Just like Joel Osteen. And Jim Wallis, Brian Mclaren, Doug Pagitt, Rob Bell...
That being nice to people isn't compromising our convictions?
That we are called to LOVE OUR ENEMIES?!?!
Define love. Is it loving to let a toddler have the bottle of poison it so badly wants to drink even though it fusses and fumes and temporarily seems to hate you? Is it loving to allow children to play with matches? Is it loving to let children play in the street? Is it loving to let them always get what they want and turn into a miserable adult that can't function in society? Is it loving to allow someone to walk into danger without warning them and trying to stop them? Is it loving to tell them that dangerous behavior is OK? Is it loving to let them believe that checking a box on a commitment card equals salvation when it doesn't? Is it loving to let them believe that praying a prayer "Jesus I believe you and I receive you" is good enough to save you, when they have not been told who Jesus is, or why he came to save us, from what he saved us, why we need that saving, and how to 'receive' (e.g. repentance and surrender to his Lordship?). Is it loving to just give people 'purpose' even though they are on their way to hell?
You see, love is so much more than being nice or feeling good. It's about giving people the hard truth, out of love, and suffering loss for it, because you know the truth is more important than your feelings, or your neighbor's feelings, or your relationship to them.
Here he assumes the answer to all those strawmen are affirmative:
Seriously, of ALL the things to hate Rick Warren over...why hate him for these those BIBLICALLY MANDATED points?
Excuse me, sir, but of all the things to chide me over and hate me for, (hey I can assume you hate me too since you disagree with me... turnabout is fair play, n'est-ce-pas?) why hate me over the BIBLICALLY MANDATED point of exposing error and false teaching?BIBLICAL MANDATES TO EXPOSE FALSE TEACHING/FALSE TEACHERS:
"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."
(John 7:24 NASB)
"I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false ...'Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.(Rev 2:2,6 NASB)
"But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one." (1 Cor 2:15)
"And let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment" (1 Corinthians 14:29, NASB)
"distinguishing of spirits," (1 Cor 12:10)
"For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. ...I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." (1 Cor 5:3,5)
"Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.I speak as to wise men; you judge what I say. (1 Cor 10:14-15 NASB)
Acts 5:1-11 Peter judges Ananias and Sapphira with grave consequences. This kind of behavior (Ananias and Saphira) goes on today all the time by so called pastors in the "Jesus wants me rich" movement. Their judgement will come as well, if they do not repent and change their ways, and learn and preach the truth.
Acts 8:21 Peter judges Simeon who wanted to buy the Holy Spirit.Acts 13:10 Paul judges Simon Bar-Jesus who was opposing the gospel
Galatians 2:11-14 Paul judges Peter for his hypocrisy and for "not being straightforward with the truth of the Gospel" and the entire book judges the Judaizers quite harshly for adding one requirement to the gospel. Just ONE.
1 Timothy 1:18‚20; 2 Timothy 2:15‚18 Paul names false teachers publicly
Which is the pattern of Scripture:
Jesus publicly condemns false and/or hypocritical teachers Matthew 23:13‚33
Paul 3 John 9‚11 condemning Diotrephes
John in Revelation 2:6 & 20
Jude is entirely about correcting error and defending the truth -- speaks about false Christians secretly slipping into the sheepfold and perverting the teaching of the church. Jude 16 is especially fitting for Rick Warren. He even admits he is 'nice' to people in order to gain advantage with them.
Publicly mark false teachers Romans 16:17 (divisions are not people who point out error - divisions are caused by the people who bring in false doctrine in the first place).
1 Tim 1:3 "so that you may instruct certain men not to (C)teach strange doctrines,"
1 Timothy 6:3-43If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness,he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions"
That would be Rick Warren.
You're a big boy and can do your own research on why Rick Warren's teaching is false. I would start here:
And you might actually find Way of the Master Radio fun to listen to, for starters. Todd Friel is a hoot.
This one really made me chuckle:
And what's with the reference to "Obama Osama"? Please tell me you're not believing that drivel about Obama being an al quaida sleeper agent (www.snopes.com, search "Obama").
Ooh he uses Snopes! Wow. Don't run into too many people who know enough to consult Snopes for all the lowdown. Apparently this person never listens to the News. That was a Teddy Kennedy reference.
See Teddy Kennedy's (alcohol-fried-brain) inability to say Obama's name:
Come on, boy, that's a well known one. Makes all these "are you aware" questions toward me really ironic...But even without that, I can see a LOT of things you are clearly unaware of. One is THE GOSPEL, and that is the only one that really concerns me at this moment. You are not getting it from Rick or the other lukewarm pastors you are listening to, apparently.
Are you aware that Christianity is even prevalent in Syria? That Rick is visiting with Muslims, but also local Christians? Look up "Coptic" on wikipedia.
Wikipedia! Why... that's almost as good as... THE BIBLE for supporting your supposedly 'scriptural' arguments! BTW IN CASE YOU DIDN'T REALIZE from my little bit of sarcasm there -- WIkipedia isn't really the best source for information, (consider the sad ongoing saga of the owner...) BUT... yes, Syria does allow some state sanctioned churches as long as they obey the government rules about what they teach and definitely no evangelism allowed! Much like China. I would love to have the government in charge of my church, too, wouldn't you? I'm sure you'll agree. We know China is a very moderate country too. (cough cough)
Like much of what passes for Christianity in America, (cough cough Brian Mclaren etc cough cough) I'm not sure I would include Coptic Christian teaching as an accurate teaching of the truth either but then... there probably are true Christians within it, as in any church that is preaching a lot of "Jesus plus works" or the like. People who are called of God can exist for a while in those kinds of organizations, ignoring the unscriptural parts. But once we are made aware of them, we must expose falsehood and find a church that does preach the truth...lest we shipwreck our faith. Find one that preaches the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
A good article and explanation on exposing error is written by one Andy Neckar, former Catholic (spent 53 years in the Catholic church).BTW Rick himself didn't make anyone really very aware of his visitations with Coptic Christians or... other Christians.. in Syria. But he made sure we knew he met with important people!
In fact, you probably would get jailed or worse for doing exactly what you've just done to me here, trying to 'correct' me in brotherly love, if you did it to anyone who wasn't already a Christian... in Syria.
In case you aren't aware, Joseph Farah has an extensive series of columns on his interaction with Rick on the Syria trip. One of the big issues is that Rick LIED in defending himself, saying he did not shoot any video. Hence my determination to post the "Syria video they never shot."
Read Joseph Farah's exchanges with Rick here:
There are also links to listen to his Syria commentary in which he talks about how wonderful relations between Christians and Muslims in Syria. Idyllic really. Wow. Makes me wanna move there.
I'm sorry, but it appears by reading your comments that you've made America your God. The Republican Party your God. And both gods will fail you on judgment day.
Are you really sorry or is that just a throwaway phrase like it is for most Americans? Judgement Day? Did you learn about Judgement Day from Brian Mclaren? Or Joel Osteen? or Rick Warren?
I am utterly clueless as to where you pulled that statement from. Really.
I can't stand what the Republican party has become, in fact. But still. At least they pretend to want good things for America, whereas the Democrats don't seem to think moral behavior is any good for society. In fact I probably won't be able to bring myself to vote for any Republicans this fall. Come to think of it, Rick Warren usually votes Republican doesn't he?
Please step back for a moment...and THINK about what truly matters; America has been blessed by God, but that has been utterly God's choosing, NOT America's innate righteousness. Rick should be commended for his efforts, not attacked.
Ah waxing Calvinist here? Then you my Calvinist brother shouldn't be endorsing the semi-pelagian Rick Warren.
I agree, God has blessed America and America for his own purposes, and yes, America is in danger of judgement, but not for the things you seem to think.
With all due Respect,
Not sure HOW I should take that.