http://www.moriel.org/articles/notice_board/statement_james_sundquist.htm
James's response
Bear calling Mike's wife:
http://www.voiceoftruthradio.com/james/bearnmikewife.mp3
Bear calling Mike:
http://www.voiceoftruthradio.com/james/bearnmiketelephone.mp3
Next day's public slander of Bear at the seminar:
http://www.voiceoftruthradio.com/james/slanderofbearpub.mp3
David Oxedine's testimony
http://www.voiceoftruthradio.com/james/davidoxedinetestimony.mp3 (difficult to listen - highly compressed sounding EQ but oh well)
Bear's record of events (be patient with all the detail he provides - much of it is important to the story eventually)
http://www.voiceoftruthradio.com/james/A%20Taste%20Of%20Mushroom/tasteofmushroom.mp3
This is so disappointing to see Jacob Prasch, David Lister, Mike Gendron, and the Higgins men behaving in this "Lording it over you" fashion. As far as I can tell, this began as a discussion James started regarding this video which I reported on here:
http://www.purposedrivel.com/2008/08/churchwatch-on-youtube-sowing-false.html
In trying to discredit the source of the video, in the course of this discussion, rather than deal with the issue of the video twisting Bob DeWaay's words in an Abanes-esque fashion, Jacob tried to discredit the messenger (whoever 'churchwatch' is) by likening that person to some ministries who he has some personal beefs with, (names which for the most part I did not know of, other than Robert Morey) as well as a certain individual Bear Frankson. This is how the issue that was three years old was "inexplicably raised." So again they are misrepresenting the issue and defending themselves with frantic red herrings. They (David and Jacob) were the ones who raised it. And yet, wonder of wonders, they have no idea why it was raised again. David Lister and Jacob went on to mischaracterize Bear's phone call to Mike Gendron's wife late at night, well as his phone call to Mike himself, as 'harassing' in nature, to all of us privy to the email discussion.
If you ask me, the lies and slander against a brother who tries to stand up for the truth -- that is harder to forgive. Dear Jesus please help me, I am trying. But it is for the benefit of Moriel, and of John Higgins and his out of control boys, as well as Sherry Neese and her husband Lanny that I write against them. I plead with them, that they may repent. For until they do no reconciliation can take place.
In it you will find transcripts and links to all the pertinent audio but here they are all together:
Bear calling Mike's wife:
http://www.voiceoftruthradio.com/james/bearnmikewife.mp3
Bear calling Mike:
http://www.voiceoftruthradio.com/james/bearnmiketelephone.mp3
Next day's public slander of Bear at the seminar:
http://www.voiceoftruthradio.com/james/slanderofbearpub.mp3
David Oxedine's testimony
http://www.voiceoftruthradio.com/james/davidoxedinetestimony.mp3 (difficult to listen - highly compressed sounding EQ but oh well)
Bear's record of events (be patient with all the detail he provides - much of it is important to the story eventually)
http://www.voiceoftruthradio.com/james/A%20Taste%20Of%20Mushroom/tasteofmushroom.mp3
This is so disappointing to see Jacob Prasch, David Lister, Mike Gendron, and the Higgins men behaving in this "Lording it over you" fashion. As far as I can tell, this began as a discussion James started regarding this video which I reported on here:
http://www.purposedrivel.com/2008/08/churchwatch-on-youtube-sowing-false.html
In trying to discredit the source of the video, in the course of this discussion, rather than deal with the issue of the video twisting Bob DeWaay's words in an Abanes-esque fashion, Jacob tried to discredit the messenger (whoever 'churchwatch' is) by likening that person to some ministries who he has some personal beefs with, (names which for the most part I did not know of, other than Robert Morey) as well as a certain individual Bear Frankson. This is how the issue that was three years old was "inexplicably raised." So again they are misrepresenting the issue and defending themselves with frantic red herrings. They (David and Jacob) were the ones who raised it. And yet, wonder of wonders, they have no idea why it was raised again. David Lister and Jacob went on to mischaracterize Bear's phone call to Mike Gendron's wife late at night, well as his phone call to Mike himself, as 'harassing' in nature, to all of us privy to the email discussion.
Jacob and David's condescending screed against Jacob's longtime friend James Sundquist claims that a host of witnesses found Bear's actions at the conference disrupting... what host of witnesses? Names? Details? What was said and done specifically that was inappropriate? You cannot make a case by saying "a bunch of people were offended." If you want to go down that road you will incriminate your own ministry! HOSTS and HOSTS of people ARE offended by Moriel ministries, you can be sure of that. But are they offended for the right reasons? I would argue, for the most part, they are not, with the exception of this particular development.
The statement Jacob and David made (after apologizing for misrepresenting Bear by accusing him of harassment and of touching pastor Higgins' wife) does not seem to add up to what was recorded in the meeting in the first sound clip where Bear was publicly defamed without opportunity to defend himself.
Bear doesn't seem to be 'harassing' anyone. The wife was not upset (as a pastor's wife with a publicly posted ministry number I would suppose he/she gets calls at all hours). He was polite. But the out of normal hours timing of the phone call, if it did happen that way, is certainly understandable because of the fact that someone had just called 911 on him. (or rather, LIED about having called 911 as was found out later - and even LIED ABOUT LYING about calling 911 - now THAT is weirdness in the name of Christ, Mr John Higgins!) I don't know that I would have been nearly as composed.
Bear doesn't seem to be 'harassing' anyone. The wife was not upset (as a pastor's wife with a publicly posted ministry number I would suppose he/she gets calls at all hours). He was polite. But the out of normal hours timing of the phone call, if it did happen that way, is certainly understandable because of the fact that someone had just called 911 on him. (or rather, LIED about having called 911 as was found out later - and even LIED ABOUT LYING about calling 911 - now THAT is weirdness in the name of Christ, Mr John Higgins!) I don't know that I would have been nearly as composed.
I pleaded with one council member and we visited (my husband, me, this council member, and his wife) until 2:30 am one night. We spent most of the afternoon not talking about it and then started, close to nightfall... and we just kept talking. It would blow my mind, if, after those very good (albeit animated at times) conversations those people were to turn and say we harassed them.
Mike gave him the phone number and for all Bear knew it was his cell number which would have rung wherever Mike was at the time, even if Bear had KNOWN it was a Dallas area code. He would not have been able to know it was a land line on such short notice.
I initially thought Mike G was caught in the middle not having been there and felt like he couldn't really do anything anyway. He does say it wasn't his problem at all. Except that ... as a shepherd in the church of the Lord, you are bound to minister to his sheep whenever they need it. And you are bound to examine the people you yoke together with. If they are behaving the way Jeremy and John Higgins have behaved, then you are bound to confront their sin. Especially if this guy is yelling across you at Bear as you sit in his car...AFTER you told Bear you would try to stick up for him.
However, Mike says in his email to James that it is not his fight and he should not be involved, and then turns around and lends support to the Higgins side of the story anyway, in the Q&A session at the seminar. Holy Double-Standard Disappointment, Batman!
It would sure be nice to see a mediated RECORDED meeting between all these people to get the issues aired and resolved. It doesn't seem to be high on Jacob's priority list, nor Higgins' in spite of Jacob's insistence that both sides be heard. And Sherry, well, I am pretty sure she would like to just stay in hiding. Bear was not given a chance to be heard at the meeting where they lauded the ability of Mike to forgive Bear's tresspasses (which had not at that time been resolved apparently!) They have been slandering this poor guy for three years with impunity and obviously THEY have not let it go. Bear did not ask to raise this issue again. DAVID LISTER AND JACOB PRASCH RAISED THE ISSUE by repeating lies about a private citizen that they had heard from their host church down there.
The actual witnesses present in many church fights seem to think the opposition's behavior is 'unChristian' and 'improper.' But that is not a testimony of events which the Bible calls for ("by the testimony of two or three witnesses" etc.), that is an opinion ABOUT the events.
The actual witnesses present in many church fights seem to think the opposition's behavior is 'unChristian' and 'improper.' But that is not a testimony of events which the Bible calls for ("by the testimony of two or three witnesses" etc.), that is an opinion ABOUT the events.
I was also purpose driven out of a church. I know some of what was said about me behind my back when I was on trial. For example, it is a fact that I trembled throughout every meeting, not because I was scared, but because I felt so strongly about what was going on, and was so upset over people's inability to see the truth. I did not rant or rave. I shed tears briefly twice. (although for some reason that didn't rally anyone to my side. I guess I don't do 'helpless' very well.) I was no more 'excited' in the meetings than anyone else (especially the last one when Jim Fretheim led the meeting and turned it openly hostile!!)
This trembling was taken to mean I was on the brink of a breakdown. No, Jody, it's because I HATE confrontation and I love the truth. And I am so grieved when people (including myself) have bought lies! Surprise surprise!
Incidentally a few months later, I also trembled when I was at a political event locally to hear Michelle Bachman discuss some proposed Defense of Marriage legislation. The pro-gay people were there of course too and when they started to rant, I started to shake.
I harbor no illusions that discernment ministries aren't subject to the same temptations to vilify the opposition when their back is up against the wall or they suffer some sort of embarrassment. I just watched Ray Comfort do the two step around his responsibility to confront error, and treat those who warned him about it with condescension, resulting in their discrediting among his staff and supporters. As wonderful as Ray's ministry is, and as bold as he is with unbelievers, he was not bold enough to openly thank the people who warned him and act the slightest bit contrite. Nor was he bold enough to lend his credibility among his supporters to bolster theirs once again. No good deed goes unpunished, I guess it's true.
Bear Frankson has no assets to protect. A ministry does. The bigger it gets, the more temptation to protect the reputation and not acknowledge faults. These things plus the audio verification of Moriel's twisting of facts are leaning me FAR in Bear's direction. Yeah he may have been vocal. Ray Comfort and his crew are vocal on the street as well and we applaud them for their boldness.
I harbor no illusions that discernment ministries aren't subject to the same temptations to vilify the opposition when their back is up against the wall or they suffer some sort of embarrassment. I just watched Ray Comfort do the two step around his responsibility to confront error, and treat those who warned him about it with condescension, resulting in their discrediting among his staff and supporters. As wonderful as Ray's ministry is, and as bold as he is with unbelievers, he was not bold enough to openly thank the people who warned him and act the slightest bit contrite. Nor was he bold enough to lend his credibility among his supporters to bolster theirs once again. No good deed goes unpunished, I guess it's true.
Bear Frankson has no assets to protect. A ministry does. The bigger it gets, the more temptation to protect the reputation and not acknowledge faults. These things plus the audio verification of Moriel's twisting of facts are leaning me FAR in Bear's direction. Yeah he may have been vocal. Ray Comfort and his crew are vocal on the street as well and we applaud them for their boldness.
Are we going to fault Tony Miano for preaching and confronting error outside the LA version of the Lakeland revival? I'm sure he was even less welcome there than Bear was outside the event he was at (an event where the speakers agreed with him on these issues) because he was actually preaching against he false prophet Todd Bentley. Bear was outside saying he agreed with the speakers but they kicked me out anyway. Is a difference in style worth all the fuss Moriel has created over it by their spreading falsehoods to make Bear look even worse in the eyes of his friends? I know some would say Jacob is at least as offensive if not more so, in style, than any claims about Bear.
Here's testimony from an eyewitness, David Oxedine
http://www.voiceoftruthradio.com/james/davidoxedinetestimony.mp3
My take:
It sounds like this Sherry person started it with her complaint against Bear (because she didn't like his style) for using something she said about PDL in his material packet. That got the men in her life all protective and emotional against, who was the perceived threat against this damsel in distress. Bear couldn't just set aside his Biblical principles and coddle the poor lady, so they got after him to get in line with everyone else who felt sorry for the cowardly lady who put her hand to the plow and then turned back.
Here's testimony from an eyewitness, David Oxedine
http://www.voiceoftruthradio.com/james/davidoxedinetestimony.mp3
My take:
It sounds like this Sherry person started it with her complaint against Bear (because she didn't like his style) for using something she said about PDL in his material packet. That got the men in her life all protective and emotional against, who was the perceived threat against this damsel in distress. Bear couldn't just set aside his Biblical principles and coddle the poor lady, so they got after him to get in line with everyone else who felt sorry for the cowardly lady who put her hand to the plow and then turned back.
And so they overreacted when he disregarded that request and continued to use her testimony (fair use) in his anti-PD packet. From that point on Bear can do no right in their eyes and they got all territorial about every nitpicking thing and blew it all out of proportion.
John Higgins makes the statement that a late night phone call is so hard to forgive. ESPECIALLY when this kind of 'weirdness' comes from Christians.
If you ask me, the lies and slander against a brother who tries to stand up for the truth -- that is harder to forgive. Dear Jesus please help me, I am trying. But it is for the benefit of Moriel, and of John Higgins and his out of control boys, as well as Sherry Neese and her husband Lanny that I write against them. I plead with them, that they may repent. For until they do no reconciliation can take place.
from the Moriel statement:
Of more concern however is the absurdity of protesting and of publicly rampaging against others who oppose Purpose Driven, ecumenism, and the other discernment related issues Mr. Sundquist himself is concerned with. To shoot your own allies when you have so few of them to begin with in a war against apostasy is frankly ludicrous.Hmm yessss....quite tragically ironic at this point...
