I realize this post needs editing for flow and whatnot but I don't have time right now. Kids, getting ready for school etc. just got back from a trip... so hopefully it's not too convoluted:
Phoenix Preacher has decided they don't like anyone calling them on the carpet for their tolerance of hateful people like Richard Abanes who serves as online apologist for his friend Rick Warren. Rick Warren, despite his personal conservative theology (It's A Personal Thing...a la Steve Taylor) is one of the most liberalizing influences on the church today, due to his watered down preaching and teaching to the general public AND to the Saddleback "Crowd."
Abanes claims in a rather generic way-- in spite of which generic phrasing we are ALL supposed to know exactly WHO he is talking about -- regarding discernment ministries
Not surprisingly, such a perspective is also often linked to an extremist end-time obsession that acts as fertile ground for the planting, watering, and harvesting of all kinds of conspiracy theories related to such things as the Antichrist, the Great Apostasy, and the so-called coing One World Government.If Richard didn't mean it toward Ingrid and Ken, then he should learn to write more clearly and quit blaming others for misunderstanding him - but then he learned from the best -- Rick Warren does the same thing. They just point you in the right direction and let you make your own inferences (after pushing you right to the last step with their false rhetoric).
I can take Richard's own words and apply them to Rick Warren with minor changes and have it be far truer:
Not surprisingly, such a watered down perspective is also often linked to an extremely liberal obsession with undermining Scripture that acts as fertile ground for the planting, watering, and harvesting of all kinds of false doctrine related to such things as Social Justice, Dominionism, The Jesus Seminar, and the so-called "Peace Plan."
Abanes claims that "such ministries" (whatever that means) provides fertile ground for all the things he doesn't like. But he won't accept the idea that Rick's approach and public teaching (saying nothing about his 'inner circle' teaching, which only benefits a very small number of people by definition) can have the same effect. Imagine that... a double standard.
I am not arguing that if Ingrid and Ken were actually teaching what is false, that they could not be characterized this way. But that is not the case. Ingrid and Ken make solid Biblical cases for their positions. R Abanes does not, nor does Rick Warren (PDL is just the tip of the iceberg) and it is THAT which provides fertile ground for all kinds of error. It is not the 'us vs them mentality' or anything else he lists. It is FALSE TEACHING which gives rise to everything else, even the legitimately bad things Richard has issues with. THAT IS WHY it is so crucial that we actually correct false teaching! And yet these people would silence those that expose false teaching, calling them divisive. In effect they are allowing exactly what they say they do not want.
So anyway now Phoenix Preacher demands an apology from Ingrid Schlueter for her saying they were an emergent blog -- as far as I can see, since I have occasionally read posts there, is for their refusal to distance themselves from false teachers such as many of the Emergents, and in particular the internet bully Richard Abanes. Waaah! Cry me a river. If all Ingrid said was this little throwaway line, it seems (if it is not true) that PhoenixPreacher's reaction is a bit extreme. He can take extreme positions regarding Ingrid but I have yet to find an extreme condemnation of Emergent jello-theology. That tells me a lot. He condemns Richard Oakland for disagreement on some secondary things, but says mildly that Doug Pagitt has some 'interesting thoughts' on theology although he just can't buy what Pagitt says 'as a whole.' It's kind of like reading Scot McKnight's blog.
All issues — ALL ISSUES — are settled via an analysis that begins and ends with: “Is this person for, or against, Rick Warren.”.
Richard is projecting here.
Of course, that is also a lie and no one calls Richard on it. If you are concerned about being misrepresented as a pro-emergent blog perhaps you should reevaluate your acceptance of such silliness as Abanes puts out. He can post there with impunity, and THAT is what calls Michael Newnham's blog's status into disrepute. You have no right to demand an apology unless you castigate Richard for his lies. Perhaps you should do some biblical analysis of his writings to prove you believe what you say you believe. A Calvinist conservative blog would NOT tolerate the semi-pelagian teachings of Rick Warren, nor put up with Abanes' vociferous and unbiblical defense of such teachings.
Abanes: Ingrid then hosted a radio program in which she raised the alarm bells of persecution far and wide, declaring that I was basically attacking all Bible-believing Christians.Bible Believing Christians are more and more coming to see the elephant in the Purpose Driven Living Room. So yes, you are in effect doing that more and more. That seems to be the case she is making.
Christians who have become obsessed/fixated on such issues at the expense of clear thinking, rational analysis of world events, and care/caution when making pronouncements about people within the Body of Christ with whom they might disagree on any number of issues.Richard on the other hand can go ahead and make his pronouncements quite a bit including pronouncements about how much care and caution the people HE disagrees with have put into making those pronouncements. He can read their minds of course. And of course, he is the final arbiter of what constitutes clear thinking. On the other hand, anyone who has read The Fallacy Detective won't have much trouble finding quite a few good examples of fallacious reasoning in Richard's diatribes.
Did Richard miss the part in the Crosstalk in question where they talked about some of his good apologetics work and how it breaks their hearts to see him go off this way? It was at the beginning AND the end. Yeah, he must have. I'm sure with his exhortation to everyone to have an even handed approach he would have brought that up otherwise. (that's a little sarcasm there, in case he missed THAT too.) He and Michaek didn't miss the part about Phoenix Preacher being an emergent blog (that has to have taken up a full 1 seconds of the broadcast).
Is that perhaps why you feel compelled to start shutting down dissent? Since you seem impressed with using Bible verses to try and intimidate people, here is one for you
Of course, that kind of thing (taking things out of context) does happen even on Richard Abanes' public statements. Somehow, when Bob made one statement suggesting that privately Rick Warren agreed with him theologically, he said that Bob DeWaay was theologically in line with Rick Warren. It was enough for him to glowingly suggest that maybe there was a light at the end of this long dark tunnel and he was practically bursting with excitement.
Ironically, the radio show by Ingrid was a PERFECT illustration of the very thing I alleged in the remark they were reading to their listeners!!!
Yeah, ironic isn't it? OH the irony of Richard Abanes accusing anyone of slander or libel or unBiblical rhetoric, or taking things out of context!
OH but of course he wasn't characterizing her (and Ken Silva by association), but a MINORITY ... yadda yadda yadda. Of course not! It's all rosy between him and Ingrid and Ken Silva who he (in those last couple of weeks he referred to in the original post) had tried to shut down.
Balderdash.
Richard your complete lack of critical thinking is starting to show. Are your book sales suffering because of its resultant damage to your reputation?
OH but of course he wasn't characterizing her (and Ken Silva by association), but a MINORITY ... yadda yadda yadda. Of course not! It's all rosy between him and Ingrid and Ken Silva who he (in those last couple of weeks he referred to in the original post) had tried to shut down.
Balderdash.
Richard your complete lack of critical thinking is starting to show. Are your book sales suffering because of its resultant damage to your reputation?
Is that perhaps why you feel compelled to start shutting down dissent? Since you seem impressed with using Bible verses to try and intimidate people, here is one for you
Proverbs 29:1 A man who hardens his neck after much reproof Will suddenly be broken beyond remedy.
I pray this will not happen to Richard Abanes, but that the Lord will grant him repentance and wisdom to see where he has erred and wounded the body of Christ, as well as nelected the wounds of sheep who have been injured by the Purpose Driven steamroller. My thoughts on Rick Warren and Abanes and others like them, while I pray that they find the truth, are very sad. I know that if they ever DO see the truth, it will devastate them with remorse. But I do pray for them to find it because the Truth is the only thing that sets a person free.
Michael of Phoenix Preacher wrote: Her theme was that Abanes rejected the second coming of Christ which is a complete lie.
I've listened to the show twice now, and I hear what he is complaining about here. But what Ingrid seemed to be saying is that Richard expressed disdain for the second coming of Christ with the paragraph she had read previously:
Not surprisingly, such a perspective is also often linked to an extremist end-time obsession that acts as fertile ground for the planting, watering, and harvesting of all kinds of conspiracy theories related to such things as the Antichrist, the Great Apostasy, and the so-called coing One World Government. An excellent book that discusses such matters is Selling Fear: Conspiracy Theories and End-Times Paranoia .
Richard, you're an author -- you KNOW that using the phrase "so called" means you are at BEST skeptical of the idea. It also calls into question the other things in that list as possible negotiables in the author's mind as well. If you are unaware of this, you should go back to writing school. In fact, I'll say it outright based on much of your other writing. You should go back to writing school. Or buy The Fallacy Detective and study it. (It's written to a young audience so you should have no trouble comprehending it.)
Of course, that kind of thing (taking things out of context) does happen even on Richard Abanes' public statements. Somehow, when Bob made one statement suggesting that privately Rick Warren agreed with him theologically, he said that Bob DeWaay was theologically in line with Rick Warren. It was enough for him to glowingly suggest that maybe there was a light at the end of this long dark tunnel and he was practically bursting with excitement.
Such fawning over Bob by Richard for his one somewhat conciliatory sounding comment (when if taken in the context of what Bob has said overall, is really damning RW with faint praise) has caused Bob no end of trouble. Anyone who's read this blog may remember that I was alarmed by it as well because I knew it would be taken as aid and comfort to the likes of the Purpose Driven crowd, due to their penchant for hearing only what they want to hear. (2. Tim 4:3)
Apparently the original light was a figment of Richard's rather overactive imagination. No hope for constructive discussions.. hmm.. kind of sound like the people he was referring to in the quote Ingrid took issue with on her show. He went on to say about Ingrid after the show:
You cannot reason with these people. You cannot have intelligent, thoughtful, honest, civilized, open discussions with them. They are living, it seems, in a world/reality of their own making where black has become white, up is down, right is left, yes means no, and vice versa.
So if he was NOT thinking about Ingrid ALREADY, this sudden 'turn' by Ingrid would certainly not prompt him to make such a pronouncement so quickly, without great care and caution!
Abanes: who have become obsessed/fixated on such issues at the expense of clear thinking, rational analysis of world events, and care/caution when making pronouncements about people within the Body of Christ with whom they might disagree on any number of issues. Such persons have, in my opinion, lost all perspective and have launched a Holy Heresy Hunting Crusade that sees:
1) the Antichrist and his minions all around them (going so far as to make it a habit of falsely accusing the brethren of heresy),
2) false teachings in nearly every word spoken by anyone with whomever they might disagree on non-essential issues, and
3) enemies in those whom they should consider fellow believers.
Oh... the Irony...examine yourself to see whether you are in the faith.
Now, since Richard has threatened anyone who reproduces his emails with criminal prosecution, no one is allowed to verify his obnoxious mean spirited and threatening behavior that he partakes in privately. When someone dares to disobey King Richard on this, he dutifully strains out his gnat and swallows the camel by complaining that they have reproduced his email unlawfully. (never mind what offensive behavior his email contains). Of course, he has people like Kathi who posts on his blog, convinced that it is Ingrid who bullies by having an opinion (rather than Richard who tries to use the legal system to shut people down for disagreeing).
I am being completely serious when I say I would like to know are we to honestly deal with someone like this, (ANYONE like this not just Abanes) If it is not to shine the light of truth on it? People say "do Matthew 18" with people who personally offend or threaten. The person being confronted, before 'two or three witnesses", "elders" or "the whole church" can be brought into the picture, screams bloody murder and pushes the 'gossip' alarm on the plaintiff and effectively stops the Biblical process. If the plaintiff goes ahead and follows Matt 18, the defendant continues to scream "slander!" "Libel!" etc. and "you posted my private email!"
I am being completely serious when I say I would like to know are we to honestly deal with someone like this, (ANYONE like this not just Abanes) If it is not to shine the light of truth on it? People say "do Matthew 18" with people who personally offend or threaten. The person being confronted, before 'two or three witnesses", "elders" or "the whole church" can be brought into the picture, screams bloody murder and pushes the 'gossip' alarm on the plaintiff and effectively stops the Biblical process. If the plaintiff goes ahead and follows Matt 18, the defendant continues to scream "slander!" "Libel!" etc. and "you posted my private email!"
Abanes: CONTRARY to what Ingrid and her guest implied, I have NEVER categorized as “extreme” any legitimate, biblically acceptable eschatologyOh that is choice. It's the same tactic that Evolutionists use to defend which Scientists are truly "scientific." Only those they deem 'legitimate.'
Richard just said they were one step away from people like David Koresh. OH yeah, THAT's not extreme. I'm sure Jim Wallis and Barak Obama (all us people are clinging to our God and our guns!) would be happy with your "Official statement." I'll quote the pertinent segment again here:
Abanes: such a perspective is also often linked to an extremist end-time obsession that acts as fertile ground for the planting, watering, and harvesting of all kinds of conspiracy theories related to such things as the Antichrist, the Great Apostasy, and the so-called coing One World Government. An excellent book that discusses such matters is Selling Fear: Conspiracy Theories and End-Times Paranoia .Nope, no extreme language there! Suuuure Richard. What color is the sky in your world again?
were in reference to a “minority” of Christians who have become obsessed/fixated on such issues at the expense of clear thinking, rational analysis of world events,OH then you have no problem with people like Ingrid and Ken then! Great! You can take back all your threats against them! Hooray! Maybe there's at last a light at the end of this long dark tunnel we have been stumbling through! Wonderful!
Now hear this! Richard Abanes has said he did not mean Ingrid when he wrote those words about 'isolationist mentality' etc. -- so he has no problem with Ingrid and Ken and other Online Discernment Ministries! I am so glad to hear that Richard. It's obviously only people like Shirley Phelps and her daddy that he was talking about!
And in the same vein, As I mentioned on Phoenix Preacher, Rick Warren has publicly distanced himself from and denounced bad behavior done in the name of Rick Warren and Purpose Driven. He agreed it was bad and that he could not be held responsible for it. I would say that this applies to Richard Abanes and basically, Rick has thown Richard under the bus, as well as all pastors who usher Purpose Driven dissenters out the door.
And in the same vein, As I mentioned on Phoenix Preacher, Rick Warren has publicly distanced himself from and denounced bad behavior done in the name of Rick Warren and Purpose Driven. He agreed it was bad and that he could not be held responsible for it. I would say that this applies to Richard Abanes and basically, Rick has thown Richard under the bus, as well as all pastors who usher Purpose Driven dissenters out the door.
