December 17, 2007

Rick Warren does the two-step... yet again!

Ya know--- I just noticed something tonight while printing out some of these Rick Warren stories for an older friend who has no internet connection or computer. I read the title of this article:
Rick Warren:AIDS too big for church alone
and in the article:
Warren says the problem of AIDS, with an estimated 33 million infected with HIV, is too big for the church alone,
And then look at this page:
There is no organization or government that can effectively eradicate these giants. The only successful solution is the global Church of Jesus Christ.

Here's a screen shot in case they suddenly are alerted that they forgot to change Animal Farm's Commandments to reflect what Old Major is saying this week:

and another page:
How do we go to all nations?

The P.E.A.C.E. Plan identifies the Five Global Giants and provides a strategy for their solution through the work of God’s instrument here on earth – the church.

These five global giants ravage the lives of billions of people worldwide and all work together to constrain them and cut them off from knowing the saving grace of a loving God who sent his son, Jesus Christ, to die for their sins allowing them eternal hope and security. There is no organization or government that can effectively eradicate these giants. The only successful solution is the global Church of Jesus Christ.

Yet another:
Now, I'll tell you my bias. I believe these problems are so big that only the church is big enough to handle it – the millions and millions and millions and millions of local churches that are spread around.
and at the Live8 concert "More Than 300 Local Pastors Participate In Training, Worship Rally and Prayer Breakfast Around Event"
We have to help Africans help themselves and create value out of available resources. I believe the best way to do that is through the church."
Prior to the concert, Warren joined One organizers in a rally on the steps behind the Philadelphia Art Museum to encourage young volunteers.
"Because you are involved in the One Campaign, you are interested in change," he said. "If you are serious about change, you need to do two things. First, focus on vision, not need; call out the greatness in people, not their guilt. Secondly, don't tell it like it is, but rather like it could be, should be, and may be.
"We don't want people to die of poverty or diseases for which we already have cures, because God loves them." Warren continued. I believe with all my heart we can do this - and I believe you are the generation to do it." 'Pastor Warren was joined on the platform by Pastor Herb Lusk, with whom he is partnering on the Purpose Driven "Stand for Africa" campaign.

and Brian Burkett provides a fawning summary of Rick saying the same thing at an August '05 Willow Creek Leadership Summit:
He then spoke of 5 global giants in our world today that he believes the church must respond to:
He then went on to say that only one thing is big enough to solve it: The millions of local churches, to which I say a hearty AMEN! He said it’s time for the church to start being the CHURCH!

Brian also says toward the beginning of the post:

Bill Hybels and Rick Warren are not wolves in sheep’s clothing, the devil, the anti-Christ, or anything else they have been accused of by so many people. Do I agree with them on everything? Nope… but I have also found myself disagreeing with previous versions of myself from time to time… if that makes sense.

Ah... yeah Brian... whatever you say. Maybe it'll be different tomorrow I guess.

Facing the world's five evil giants!
By Rick and Kay Warren
The world is full of problems. Some are small and some are huge. As Kay and I considered the problems facing the world today, we concluded there are five giants -- five pervasive problems that affect billions of people.
These are the ones we want to tackle, believing God gets the most glory when we attack the biggest giants. These problems are so huge that they can only be addressed with total dependence on God and with all of us -- your congregation and mine, Christians all around the world -- working together to confront them.
The Orange County Register reports, in a story on Warren entitled:
Pastor lays out a global vision Sunday April 17, 2005
Q: How will the work be funded?
A: These are problems so big that no government can solve them. The only thing big enough are millions and millions of local churches of every kind.
Hmm then suddenly this year Warren starts saying what he said in the WND article. See another church's report on Warren's PEACE plan - now it's not the ONLY force capable of changing the world anymore, from the Loveland, CO, Reporter-Herald.

Warren teaches that the church is the most powerful instrument to change the world, Slayback explained.
“It’s the means through which we can help the poor and care for the sick,” he said.
“It’s an effective way to change the world.”
But along with that, he added, comes a partnership with community members.
To be successful in planting a church and transforming a community, Slayback said, there must be a partnership with the powerful people in the community.

also I find this semi-pelagian comment quite revealing:

"As a pastor, my job is to change behavior," Warren emphasized.
Once again taking on the role of the Holy Spirit. There is SO much in this story to take issue with, from saying it's OK to distrubute condoms to the adulterers Proverbs warns every man the comment about being able to work with Catholics... (yeah but can Catholics work with YOU? I'm not even Catholic and I know that consistent Catholics won't buy your line Rick Warren...)
I mean, really! This guy thinks we're all as easily duped as his koolaid drinkers.

Here is a good review of the PEACE plan I haven't read before, by a name I don't recognise:
Tony Pearce
All of this sounds very inspiring and is having a huge impact on evangelical Christians. However the idea that the church can change the leadership of the world system and eradicate poverty, disease and ignorance does not square up with the Word of God nor with the reality of what is happening in the world today. Jesus said there are going to be famines, earthquakes, pestilences and disasters hitting the earth with increasing frequency in the last days and widespread persecution of Christians, in fact the complete opposite of what Rick Warren is saying.

This is not to say that Christians should not be involved in giving relief to those in need in the world. But the idea that the church can be mobilised to bring a new leadership to the world which will eradicate poverty and social ills is another restatement of the dominion teaching which has blinded Christians to the truth of the prophetic word over the past thirty years and sent them down the path to disappointment. Dreams of transforming society and endless prophecies of imminent revival always turn to dust and ashes in the face of social reality. More and more people turn to yoga, Tai Chi and other alternative spiritualities based on Hinduism and eastern religions, Islam becomes more and more assertive, and apostate Church leaders continue to deny the fundamentals of the faith to the applause of the media which for the most part shows hatred and disdain for the Lord Jesus Christ. Meanwhile crime, violence, terrorism, breakdown of family life and sexual immorality continue to increase at alarming rates across the world, making life almost unbearable for millions.

There is not a shred of evidence either in the Bible or in world events around us that a billion man evangelical Christian army will lead the world out of darkness into the light of Rick Warren’s ‘New Reformation.’

Thank you for some sanity, Tony!

December 15, 2007

Rick Warren, Huckabee, and Jimmy Morris

James asked me what I thought of Jimmy Morris' response to his warning about Huckabee and his affinity for Rick Warren/Purpose Driven. My response:

That's ridiculous. Huckabee SAID his church is like Rick Warren's and he loves it and it plainly teaches all the Rick Warren swill! What more evidence does he need???

I think it's just an excuse to cover up his own lack of conviction and discernment about Warren and all the spin-off church growth philosophies.

you know.. I got some Huckabee SPAM the other day asking for a contribution. I have NO idea how I got on his mailing list...

Here's what I wrote back to the Huckabee SPAM:
Mike Huckabee is a social gospel liberal Christian furthering the general delusion present in evangelicalism today.

He won't get my backing. He and Romney have been going back and forth misrepresenting both faiths in an effort to appease. NOT impressive.

and then, to James

You know, if either of them were to honestly represent their own and the other's faith, I might be more inclined to vote for them.

So far NONE of the Republican candidates strike me as particularly Christian, and Huckabee and Romney have the added disadvantage now of having been disingenuous about what they really believe, and in Huckabee's case, apologizing for representing Mormonism accurately.


James responded:

Dear Paula,
Here is my response to Jimmy if you want to.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 8:38 AM
Subject: Re: RESPONSE Proof: Re: Mike Huckabee RIck Warren alliance & Rick Warren's Global Peace Plan vs. Scripture

Dear Jimmy,
Thank you again for your prompt reply. I will keep you posted on more developments. I respectfully must disagree with you on two grounds.
Huckabee's comments about his church has everything to do with his doctrinal position. He is not just a member of a Purpose-Driven Church, but publicly has touted Rick Warren's PDC. Your argument that his statements don't reflect his doctrine are the equivalent of Romney saying his comments don't reflect his Mormonism. (Mormon position on Jesus being the brother of Satan, is a matter of public record and their own publish doctrine...I am astonished they would deny it). It does not defy basic logic if it is true. Huckabee can't possible claim ignorance about the manner in which PDC training of its leaders and churches what to do with resisters who oppose Warren's agenda. That too is a matter of public record. And if he didn't know, he should by now, because I sent him the proof. It is not a secret that the entire Southern Baptist Convention, including its President Frank Page are soldout Warrenites, including his own church.
I don't know what more I can do to convince you, except for you to ask Mike Huckabee directly if he endorses Rick Warren's Global Peace Plan (hard to believe he doesn't, since he too spoke at Warren's AID's Conference). If for some reason he does not have the expose I sent you, I invite you to give it to him and ask him. In all my correspondence with the Arkansas Baptist Convention, NONE could refute my facts...they simply resorted to ad homimim attacks against me. But once again, the expulsion of opponents to Rick Warren in SBC church is a matter of public record. I suggest you read the article by Suzanne Sataline in the Wall Street Journal on Rick Warren.
Ask Huckabee directly, if he participated in the Discovery SHAPE personality profiling? Did he personally sign any Warrenite covenants that his church promulgates? You might think there is no viable association with Rick Warren. But because of his own published statements about what his church is doing, and in fact, his church is doing is going to be believed by most people who will hear this on the radio shows where I speak. And, up until you, no one has disbelieved it.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 2:26 AM
Subject: Re: RESPONSE Proof: Re: Mike Huckabee RIck Warren alliance & Rick Warren's Global Peace Plan vs. Scripture


Thank you for your prompt reply. However, I still see nothing in your email that indicates that Mike Huckabee has wholeheartedly endorsed and supports everything Rick Warren teaches. According to basic logic, Warren endorsing Huckabee is not by any means equivalent to Huckabee endorsing Warren. The only thing that even comes close is Huckabee's comment regarding their churches and in the context provided, his comment has nothing to do with doctrinal belief. Thank you for sharing your concerns, but I think some of the Christian community has jumped to false conclusions based on inaccurate assumptions in this matter. Please email me if you have further thoughts.


James Sundquist wrote:
Dear Jimmy Morris,
Thank you for your response. Here is the proof you need of Rick Warren/PDC alliance and affiliation. This association, promotion, and endorsement of Rick Warren began long before Huckabee even published any intent to run for President. What puzzled me about it was that so many of the values that Huckabee espouses collide with Warren's own teachings and methodology. I am friends of Ed Newby and Berean Call in Bend, in case you need more corrobation on Warren. He can also verify what happened to members of a church right in Bend who opposed Warrenite programming. I tried to appeal to Janet Folger a well known radio talk show host who supports Huckabee, who to her credit has come out swinging in opposition to Rick Warren...[see letter to her below] btw, I grew up in Eugene and graduated from the UofO.

Dr. Rick Warren recently made this statement discussing Governor Huckabee on a radio program:

“I know most of the candidates running for president but I’ve known Mike Huckabee the longest, since we did our graduate degrees together in the late 70s. Mike’s a man of vision, compassion, and integrity. I’ve watched his uncanny ability to identify with normal people in ways that many leaders don’t. That’s probably why TIME named him one of the five best governors in America. He’s definitely presidential material. But honestly, what I find most appealing is his self-deprecating humor. That’s a key sign of a spiritually and emotionally healthy leader - someone who is comfortable with himself, is authentic, doesn’t wear a mask, and is secure enough to be humble. People love that.”


[Mike Huckabee's own website]

fyi, I have sent repeated appeals to Mike Huckabee and his staff and have received no reply. They can't claim I spammed them because they contacted me for support. It was not a very good idea for him and his people (besides) me to ignore me. I am a regular guest on a host of Christian radio programs which have up to several hundred radio stations such as Watchman on the Wall,, VCY America, and many others. as you can see from my bio on my site. I also write for a number of biblical journals and discernment newsletters throughout the world. So I very surprised that this would not concern him.

What is frightening is that if Romney (who promotes and endorses Rick Warren...see:, Huckabee, or Hillary become President, all of whom have formed unholy alliances with Warren, we are doomed. Just pray that a hedge of thorns will surround them so none of them will help the United States become a Purpose Driven Nation like Rwanda.


Dear Janet,
I commend you on your recent article: "THE NEXT PRESIDENT". I agree with your conclusions, with one exception. But I think you will agree with me, once you know who Huckabee supports. Huckabee does meet the right criteria as you lay it out. But he and his church are totally sold out to Rick Warren and his Purpose-Driven Philosophy, which means they concur with his Global Peace Plan. From everything I have heard you speak on to defend liberty and America, I can't imagine that you would want to support a candidate who is a follower of a man who thinks Islam is a religion of peace and that we can forge Warren's global peace plan with Muslims.

I contacted the Church At Rock Creek which is Mike Huckabee’s Purpose Driven Church as glowingly recommended here.

(emphasis added)

...the real significance of Huckabee—and, to a lesser extent, Brownback—is that he represents the introduction of a new constituency into the political process: “Second Commandment” Christians, those more interested in salvation than damnation, people like the California pastor Rick Warren, author of The Purpose Driven Life. Huckabee says, “Our church in Little Rock is very similar to Rick Warren’s. We’ve gone from 25 members to about 5,000 in eight years. Our focus has been to minister to people who were otherwise neglected. We built a ministry center before we even had a sanctuary. We held our services in warehouses until a year or two ago.” The center contains a range of faith-based initiatives: welfare to work, job training, programs for recovering alcoholics and drug addicts, a food bank. “We are a multicultural, multiracial congregation, with rich and poor,” Huckabee says. “I play the bass in the Praise band.”
Here is the rest of my warning to Christians regarding Huckabee:

It is a lot like Rick Warren's church all right. Here is his church's website:

which promotes Warren's Celebrate Recovery,

won Warren's Church Health Award:

"Since 1999, Purpose-Driven ministries have honored four to six churches each year that have shown excellence in adapting the Purpose-Driven paradigm to their congregation. With thousands of churches having participated in the “40 Days of Purpose” discipleship program in recent months, Purpose-Driven decided to honor 79 churches this year. Each church received a check for $1,000.

The Southern Baptist congregations receiving a 2004 Church Health Award were:

The Southern Baptist congregations receiving a 2004 Church Health Award were:

Bay Area Fellowship, Corpus Christi, Texas

Brookwood Community Church, Greenville, S.C.

Centro Familiar Cristiano Betesda, Orange, Calif.

The Church at Rock Creek, Little Rock, Ark."

(Pastor Bob DeWaay wrote a brilliant expose on this Purpose-Driven Church Health Awards in his book on Rick Warren)

And here is a quote from Huckabee's teaching pastor Greg Kirskey's sermon entitled Fire Extinguisher...available on the church website:

"No human emotion poses a greater threat to our health and happiness than fear."

And this is posted by Huckabee's Senior Pastor Mark Evans:

" Mark Evans is the founder and Senior Pastor of The Church at Rock Creek. Understanding that many people don't go to church because it is boring and irrelevant, Mark began Rock Creek in 1995. Believing that people really do matter to God, Rock Creek has grown from 25 people to over 5,000 attending the weekend services. Rock Creek was featured in Church Growth magazine’s list of “The 100 Fastest Growing Churches in America."


The community-focused ministries at Rock Creek – a hands on computer lab, an employment training agency, a food bank, and a car repair ministry – led President Bush to select The Church at Rock Creek as the backdrop for a discussion about the role faith-based organizations play in changing the landscape of America.

And of course, RIck Warren's PEACE Plan and Discovery Classes:


The Hall of Fame Class is the fourth class in Rock Creek's Life Development Process. In this class you will learn how to connect other people to God by using your story of how He has worked in your life. You will also be introduced to the P.E.A.C.E. Plan, a radical missions approach that is a key part of how Rock Creek does missions. In addition, we will help you develop and execute your own personal mission statement.


Rock Creek does missions through a radical new strategy called the P.E.A.C.E. Plan. Through P.E.A.C.E. your small group will become equipped to address the world’s five global giants: spiritual lostness, corrupt leadership, poverty, disease and lack of education.

The P.E.A.C.E. plan is designed to mobilize ordinary church members to do normal tasks that can change the world. Everyone can participate through personal, local, and global P.E.A.C.E. projects. God can and will use you and our missions team is here to help you get started.

If you are not ready to go overseas, there are personal and local dimensions to this strategy that do not require any travel at all. Rock Creek's Hall of Fame Class prepares you to live out the P.E.A.C.E. Plan.

And of course Warren's baseball diamond:

And like Warren, Huckabee is a graduate of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.

Any questions?

Therefore, you have to ask your self, do you want a sold-out Warrenite to be your next President?

I am afraid to even ask him what his position is on Israel!


James Sundquist


Rock Salt Publishing

December 13, 2007

More people Julie should threaten

Gosh I thought Emergent was all about tolerance and hearing all sides...

But since it's not, Julie would like to sue people who criticize her man (In spite of the fact that if he is speaking the truth, his detractors would actually be heaping blessing upon him... I guess she feels she's blessed enough.)

Why do I keep hearing "ah now we see the violence inherent in the system...Come see the violence inherent in the system! help help I'm being repressed! That's what I'm on about...Do you see him repressing me? You saw it didn't you!?"

Here are a few more for you to complain to, Julie:

John Macarthur since he has called the Emergent church Pagan

Todd Friel at Way Of the Master (and you may as well throw the rest in there too -- Ray Comfort, Kirk Cameron, etc.)

The White Horse Inn

Issues Etc

Chris Rosebrough of Extreme Theology

and of A Little

Certainly some of those have criticized Tony's Emergent theology as much as Ken has. And again, as I said, the list is endless.

I'm sure that if you start down this road, remember the precedent you are asking for. I am amazed that people who want freedom of speech are willing to clamp down on the entire internet (because that is what will happen if this were to 'succeed' in Julie's mind) and cut off their nose to spite their face. Just

And you better harvest all the information of the negative book reviews on Amazon.

Or... is it that she doesn't trust people's ability to judge Tony's teaching for themselves? Rather condescending... don't you think?

Methinks the lady wants to make an example and cause the rest of us to quake in our boots. But I have no proof of that other than it follows the typical pattern of those-who-would-be-king.

Julie Jones tough gal

Julie Jones has responded to my post over at (Yes, we have no comments here... I have enough to do.)
Defamation of character, which you seem unclear about, is not an opinion but use of slanderous speech as fact which in turn defames ones character and is illegal under internet law.
Then perhaps Tony should stop speaking and supplying such slanderous statements about himself. (I would add Brian Mclaren, Doug Pagitt, and Rob Bell to those that ought to stop speaking, for their own spiritual health and that of their hearers.)

I would also suggest you take on all the other bloggers and pastors who are critiquing Tony's unbiblical doctrines, lest you be considered inconsistent. Have you threatened John Macarthur yet? Bob DeWaay? Ingrid Schlueter? Ron Gleason? Let's see... who else can you sue... OH the list is endless....

And what? You cannot understand the meaning of 1 Cor 6? OH that's right, we're reimagining Christianity now...

Emergent has sincerely gone through the looking glass. I fear for their souls.

"When I use a word, it means what I want it to mean; neither more, nor less"

Thank you Julie for blessing us - or rather Ken specifically but the rest of us by extension - with your false accusations and persecution for Jesus' name's sake! (Matt 5:11) Jesus be praised! I look forward to the great opportunity for the truth to come out that you will be providing for the true body of Christ! (Philippians 1:12-14)

Oh make sure you aren't using the Message, Julie, when you look those up.

Her last line:
That nastiness on your blog was not kind, Paula.

Aww.... I'm hurt. That was mean of you.

And suing people who are your brothers or sisters in Christ ... that's just so nice too. And so very Scriptural. To quote your beloved, "We want to follow Christ in community with one another. In a very messy way, we’re trying to figure out what that means."

Wel, welcome to the mess! Apparently you've put God in a box because he's not allowed (in your world) to make this kind of mess.

OH hey here's another one you can sue:

Chris Lyons true colors: mean-spirited and hateful

My goodness. For a church that calls for tolerance of everyone and everything, Chris Lyons has some nasty things to say about Ken Silva et al. I am SHOCKED, SHOCKED I tell you...

At, Chris writes, in a post entitled "When Scoring Points is of Greater Need than Love"

The long knives of the Sanhedrin were out in full force, seeing this as as a time to take shots at a church in tragedy (and not the first time they've done it to this church). When you’re at war with the forces of this present darkness, it isn’t surprising that there will be shots that are fired at brothers and sisters in Christ - literally or figuratively. What is really sad is when the get shot in the back.

But it's not like this is something new for rabid watchdogs in need of being put down…

Never mind that the Sanhedrin he links to at Endtheapostasy even close to the class of someone like Ken Silva. In fact, I spent some time at Endtheapostasy trying to correct it kinda sounds like the emerging church is just like every church they whine and complain about. Well, show us some leadership in your chosen moralism. Go ahead! Show us how it works, and "speak the truth in love..."

Wuv...Twu Wuv...

Oh and by the way... when you're identified as a wolf in the sheepfold, figuratively, you may get shot (figuratively) in whatever body part presents itself. (AGAIN, FIGURATIVELY!)

When you’re at war with the forces of this present darkness, it isn’t surprising that there will be shots that are fired at brothers and sisters in Christ - literally or figuratively. What is really sad is when the get shot in the back.
What I find sad is when people like those at end up trivializing people's real physical suffering by equating verbal/doctrinal opposition with physical violence and persecution and being 'shot in the back.' That is the REAL disservice here.

Tony Jones' anklebiter wife

Well looks like Ms. Jones has decided to defend her hubby. Funny that's just what my pastor's wife did. Although she didn't threaten a lawsuit -- she would go around rebuking anyone who dared criticize her perfect wonderful husband.

She's set her sights on Ken Silva who apparently doesn't get enough personal attacks, (ahem) and has threatened a lawsuit if he doesn't stop writing about her apostate husband.

She's also sent him a letter which she asked him to post (at the link above) for all to see her challenge to him. Very well. We are not impressed (and that includes her literary skills).

Frankly MS Jones, I don't know if you realize that you can't really 'defame' someone using their own words and teachings, and/or by publicly disagreeing with those words and teachings.

Then again, liberals don't tend to think their actions through very well. They also think the law is there only to protect them, and not their opposition.

If I may quote: The sheer effrontery makes you look pretty ignorant, if you don’t mind me saying.